Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A82-W30
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A82-W30
Release Date: July 24, 2004
发布日：2004年7月24日
Topic: VOA Interviews Wei Jingsheng: Extreme Worsen Poverty in China
标题：美国之音燕青采访魏京生等：中国贫困形势极为严峻
Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
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Voice of America YanQing's Interview:
Wei Jingsheng: Internal Conflicts in the Chinese Communist Party Benefit the People.
Original subject: Chinese Poverty Situation Worsened
Over 200 million living under poverty in China
Participants:
Wei Jingsheng: Internationally known human rights and democracy activist and author. Chair of Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition. President of Wei Jingsheng Foundation.
Chen Youwei: Director of the China Forum in Washington, DC. Commentator on Chinese affairs.
Dr. Arthur Waldron. Professor of International Relations, University of Pennsylvania. Director of Asia Division of American Enterprises Research Institute.
The number of Chinese living under the poverty level has consistently increased in recent years. Last year alone the increase was 800,000.
Liu Jen, the head of the Office of Poverty in the Chinese State Council indicates that the poverty situation is very bad. According to government statistics there are 29 million living under poverty. The official poverty definition is US$ 0.20 per day or 637 Yuan per year. Experts point out that if one uses the 1US$ per day standard of the World Bank, China has more than 200 million people living under poverty.
Wei Jingsheng: Government statistics indicate internal struggle.
This is the first time in 20+ years that the Chinese Government has reported an increase in poverty. At the Global Conference on Poverty held in Shanghai a month ago, the Chinese Government proclaimed a huge achievement in eradicating poverty, saying "China has set an example for the other countries in large scale reduction of poverty". Observers point out that the Chinese Government now admits poverty has increased instead of decreased. It is an indication of an intensifying internal struggle.
Wei feels that the Chinese Communist Party has split into major factions. When that happens, the factions compete for public opinion, support and approval. Internal conflicts are exposed to the public. Recently there have been numerous exposures, including the Olympic corruption of tens of millions dollars. These exposures were announced officially. When internal struggle intensifies to a point that it cannot be revolved, it is brought outside for resolution.
Chen Youwei: Social discontent intensifying
Chen: Chinese economic development is benefiting many people - lifting their living standard. It is also intensifying discontent and increasing social conflict.
The excessive labor supply in the rural areas, yearly increase in unemployment from government and private enterprises, over-supply of professional graduates, taxes and other levies exceeding farmers' income, collusion of official and business lead to immense discontent. Additionally, confiscative land seizure has forced many non-poverty people into the poverty category. As a result, China's poverty populations are increasing in some categories and decreasing in others.
Chen points out that some Chinese officials think that the people have no power and cannot revolt. This status quo thinking is very dangerous.
Wei Jingsheng: Chinese Communist Party's Internal Conflict benefits the people.
Wei thinks that the internal struggles leading to the Government admitting increasing poverty will benefit the people.
Wei: If the Government was united, the people would suffer. Now that the Government is split, it has forced the exposure of the situation. Various factions will be forced to appeal to the people; to formulate and publicize solutions to win over the people.
Wei points out that the increasing disparity between the poor and the rich is the more serious situation. To some extent this is the result of the long-term policy of "take from the poor, give to the rich" and the widespread official corruption.
Wei: There are two reasons for the increasing poverty - both of them relate to politics. Due to the Party's long-term policy of "take from the poor, give to the rich", a few get rich first and rapidly. Some enter the list of the world's richest individuals. These few rich individuals living standards far exceed that of the Western society. The majority of the people are getting poorer. This process is extremely exploitive. It is the model of early, primitive capitalism where there are neither basic rights nor security for average citizens. This accelerates the disparity between the poor and the rich.
Another reason is the corruption of the officials, especially those in the poorer areas. They emulate the "city folks". They demand high-priced cars, high-priced houses, expensive restaurant meals, etc. The sources of this waste are exploited from their people. Official corruption and exploitive taxes and levies are the causes that drive people into poverty.
Waldron: precious resources are not used in sustainable development.
Chen: The immense discontent of those who struggle on the poverty line will be directed to the rich and the government. The discontent increases when they realize their powerlessness.
Dr. Waldron testified earlier before the US Senate's Committee on Foreign Relations that: China's official economic growth statistics should not be accepted without scrutiny. These statistics do not represent China is healthy on economic development.
Waldron: Government loans to private enterprise are only 1% of all loans. The majority of private savings and other resources controlled by the Government are not invested in sustainable and job creating development. This wasteful usage causes a huge loss for China that cannot afford such loss.
Wei Jingsheng: The Government must be responsible for eliminating poverty.
Wei pointed out that to really eliminate poverty in China requires a government responsive to the peoples' needs. It should not have a policy favoring the rich. It should have a policy that is fair to the entire populace.
Wei: The people are capable of solving their own problems. The Government should create a favorable environment to enable the people to take the initiative. Official exploitation robs the people of their meager and heard-earned wealth before accumulation. How can the people rise above poverty?
(Report Credit: Voice of America. Translation Credit: Robert T. Huang. The Wei Jingsheng Foundation is responsible for this version of the translation.)
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中文版
Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A82-W30
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A82-W30
Release Date: July 24, 2004
发布日：2004年7月24日
Topic: VOA Interviews Wei Jingsheng: Extreme Worsen Poverty in China
标题：美国之音燕青采访魏京生等：中国贫困形势极为严峻
Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
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美国之音燕青报道：中国贫困形势极为严峻 (2004年7月20日)
中国的贫困人口近年来有增无减，光是去年一年，贫困人口就增加了八十万。
*中国贫困人口超过两亿*
中国国务院扶贫办公室主任刘坚说：“目前，全国的贫困形势极为严峻。”根据中国官方统计，全国目前有二千九百万人生活在北京政府设定的每天二十美分的贫困线之下，年收入不到六百三十七元人民币。但是专家指出，如果按照世界银行规定的每天一美元的贫困标准，中国的贫困人口超过两亿。
*魏京生：官方数字显示党内斗争*
这是中国政府二十多年来第一次报告贫困人口有所增加。仅仅一个多月之前，中国政府还在上海举行的全球扶贫大会上大力宣传中国在减少贫困方面取得的“巨大成功”，认为中国为世界其他国家树立了一个“大规模减少贫困”的榜样。观察人士指出，中国政府现在承认，贫困人口不减反增，暗示中共的内部斗争有所加剧。著名的中国海外民运联席会议主席魏京生告诉记者，中国官方公布这些数字是共产党内斗的结果。魏京生说：“现在共产党真正开始分成派了，共产党一分成派呢，它就要到老百姓、到公众舆论界去找公平和裁判了。内斗就会斗到外边来了。最近暴露出很多事实，包括奥运会组委会贪污几千万这样的事，而且是官方公布出来的数字。内部的争斗太激烈，没有办法在内部解决了，所以就要拿到外边来解决。”
*陈有为：社会不满情绪日益扩大*
美国【华府中国论坛社】社长、中国问题评论家陈有为说，中国的经济发展给很多人带来好处，让他们的生活水平有所提高，但是与此同时，社会中的不满情绪与裂痕也在增长、扩大。
陈有为说：“由于农村闲置人员过多，企业和机关逐年裁减的下岗人员增加，大专院校毕业学生供过于求，农民生产所得抵不上苛捐杂税，以及城乡官商勾结，通过掠夺性的土地开发，把本来很多不是贫困的人投入了贫困的行列，(使得)中国贫困人口一方面有所减少，另一方面又在增加。”
陈有为指出，有些中国官员认为，老百姓手上没有权力，反正也造不了反，就这么过下去，这种思路是很危险的。
*魏京生：中共内斗百姓得益*
魏京生认为，从中国政府承认贫困人口增加来看，中共的内斗也给老百姓带来好处。
魏京生说：“他们团结了，老百姓就遭殃了，他们要有内斗，老百姓就得其利。现在至少事实能够揭露出来了，那么双方可能也都有一些施政的措施要向老百姓让步，来争取民心。”
魏京生指出，比贫困人口增加更加严重的问题是中国的贫富差距越来越大。贫困人口增加和贫富差距扩大。从某种程度上讲，是中国共产党劫贫济富和贪污腐败的结果。他说：“中国的贫困人口没有减少，反而增加了，有两个重大的原因。这两个重大原因其实都是跟政治有关的。一个原因，就是中共长期实行的劫贫济富的政策，少数人富起来了，而且富得不得了，甚至成为世界排行榜上的富翁。一个小的阶层，他们富得很快，很多人过的生活已经远远超过西方发达国家。但是另外，大部份人反而愈加贫困化了，被剥削得很厉害。也就是这种没有保障的、没有基本权力保障的早期资本主义的方式，使得中国的贫富差距变得特别大。这是一个重要原因。还有一个重要原因就是：特别是在那些比较贫困地区的官员，也效仿城里人，也要攀比城里人，坐高级车、高档车、住高级房子，大把花钱，几万块钱一顿饭吃着这样的，学这样的方式，其实他们花的钱，其实都是从老百姓身上盘剥出来的。就是这种腐败的政治和苛捐杂税，是造成很多人走向贫困的一个很重要的原因。”
*林蔚：宝贵资源未用于可持续发展*
美国【华府中国论坛社】社长陈有为说，贫困状况可以导致在贫困线上挣扎的人对富有的人以及对政府当局产生强烈不满；当穷人觉得改变贫困现状的权力不在自己手上的时候，这种不满会加剧。
美国宾州大学国际关系教授林蔚(Arthur Waldron)博士早些时候在美国参议院外交委员会举行的听证会上说，中国对外公布的经济增长数字不可全信，而且那些增长数字不代表中国社会健康的经济发展。他说，政府给普通老百姓拥有的私营企业的贷款，在贷款总数中只占百分之一。老百姓辛辛苦苦攒下的钱、放在银行里的储蓄以及其他由政府控制的财源，大部份都没有被用到真正可持续发展、可以长期给社会提供就业机会的项目上。他说，这种浪费给中国社会带来巨大的损失，而且中国没有多少资源可以这么浪费。
*魏京生：消除贫困政府要负责*
魏京生认为，要真正消除贫困，中国需要一个对老百姓负责的政府，而且在政策上，需要的不是偏向富人的政策，而是在全社会范围内，对所有人都比较公正的政策。
魏京生：“老百姓自己会解决问题。问题是你不给他创造那个条件，他没有办法去解决那些问题。人家好不容易挣一点钱，还没有积累起来，就都被你们给剥削走了，你说那个贫困地区，它怎么能脱贫嘛！”
(本期感谢美国之音)
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