Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A144-W64
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A144-W64
Release Date: August 6, 2005
发布日：2005年8月6日
Topic: Interview with Wei Jingsheng: The Rise and Fall of the Chinese Communist Party
标题：专访魏京生：中共的崛起与崩溃
Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
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Interview with Wei Jingsheng: The Rise and Fall of the Chinese Communist Party
The Epoch Times
July 6
by Lin Chong
Recently Wei Jingsheng passed through Chicago, and spoke extensively on issues such as the rise and fall of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), Sino-US relations, the rights of Falun Gong practitioners, and the Chinese Democracy Movement.
Lin: With your decades of experience in the Chinese Democracy Movement, how do you view China's current situation in terms of politics, economics, and its global influence? Right now there are two completely different views on China. One holds that China is on the rise; its global influence is growing larger and larger, and because of China's rise a new world order may be formed. The other side holds strongly to the view that China will collapse, and that this collapse seems imminent. How do you look at these two views?
Wei Jingsheng expounding on the mutual relationship between China's rise and collapse
Wei: Actually these two views are interrelated. When speaking of China's "rise", of course there are some people who speak of it from a positive perspective; they say that China's economy is so, so great, its political situation is so, so stable -- they speak from the perspective of beautifying the situation. But from another perspective, this so-called "rise of China" is just that China is becoming more aggressive in its diplomacy and foreign relations; this also shows a sense of urgency on the part of the Chinese government.
From the Jiang Zemin era to the Hu Jintao era, the Chinese government has made its scheme more and more clear. Its scheme is to use success in foreign affairs to resolve unresolvable internal issues. Therefore it is directly related to the "collapse of China" theory. Because if we look at phenomena in China, even though its economy and other areas are developing quite quickly, and skyscrapers and mansions are being built everywhere, some extremely serious problems exist. These problems aren't just serious, they are extremely serious. If they were in another country that country may have already collapsed. But with difficulty, China is still maintaining itself, and just because of this situation it constricts the Chinese government and makes the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) feel as if it has no way to resolve these problems unless it were to relinquish power; otherwise these problems are unresolvable. But it doesn't want to relinquish power, so it has been able to think of another route, which is to expand itself outward. So its scheme of expansion has become more and more clear and its moves are larger and larger. Therefore it's given people a direct impression, which is: China is stronger and stronger, as if its on the rise. But this is also the sign of a crisis.
After Hu Jintao's Ascension
Lin: Your Wei Jingsheng foundation recently has news about human rights activists being threatened and abused by the CCP, and has called upon the international community to pay close attention to this new round of suppression. After Hu Jintao came into power many people had great hopes in him and felt that he could become China's Gorbachev. But almost at the same time, he arrested dissidents on a large scale, suppressed China's citizens even further and intensified its persecution of Falun Gong, shattering this hope. Moreover, he's intensified ideological control over the country. In your view, why does Hu Jintao act like this and why did people at that time have such hope in him?
Wei Jingsheng: I think on one hand people had a good and kind desire; they always hope that from the CCP there could emerge a wiser leader that would make some compromises with society. That way the entire country could avoid disaster. But the CCP has utilized this kind desire to spread its propaganda, extolling Hu Jintao. So it created a period of time in which everyone was saying: Hu Jintao has so much hope, even though I tried to tell everyone that was not true. However, what you say to him goes in one ear and out the other, people still wanted to believe that Hu Jintao is a good person, that in all he is a Chinese Gorbachev.
But people have forgotten one thing, which is, he is the ruler of an autocratic and dictatorial regime. He has to serve the ruling class; how can he make these compromises? How can he relinquish the CCP's one-party rule? So inevitably his methods are to use his actions to shatter everyone's hope.
After he became president, he wanted to take power, to be responsible, to maintain the regime, so inevitably he had to oppress the people, detain dissidents on a large scale and persecute all different types of religious groups. So he believes that he has to use tough methods to deal with whatever threatens his political power. This is an inevitable phenomenon.
One important point is that people are more and more clearly coming to see this phenomenon. And after he revealed his true colors, it aroused more people to oppose him. For example Falun Gong's protests are becoming obvious, their stands are more distinct. I think that to a great extent they were forced by the CCP to oppose it. It's a case of the people revolting against officials' suppression. So this is the relationship between the people and the CCP. I think that in the end there is only one possible final result. That is that the CCP's one party rule ends and that a new society is established that is democratic, free, and where people all have basic rights. I think that this is what everyone hopes for.
Sino-US Relations and Mutual Influence
Lin: At this year's UN Human Rights Convention in Geneva, the US decided that this year they would not table a resolution condemning China's human rights violations. And earlier during the Chen Yonglin defection case, the Australian government acted in a way unbecoming of a democratic nation. Why do you think that these democratic nations act this way in regards to common values like democracy, human rights, and freedom? Western nations went all out in containing the former Soviet Union, so why are they so lenient with the Chinese Communists?
Wei Jingsheng analysing the reasons behind the US decision not to initiate a resolution condemning Chinese human rights violations this year
Wei: I think that this issue is a bit more complicated, for instance when you speak of the US not tabling a resolution this year. When this happened I immediately went to the State Department to discuss this with them. At that time the Acting Assistant Secretary of State explained to me their major reasons for doing this.
One of them was the old way of paying close attention to Chinese human rights violations can't be said to be innefective, but its effects aren't that obvious. So they want to try to change their methodology a little, that is, they have come to certain terms with the CCP; they've required the CCP to agree to certain conditions, and the CCP has actually agreed to a series of conditions. So they say that they'll test it for a year, give the CCP some chance. If the CCP can't completely meet these conditions, then we'll go back to the old way. If it can agree to these conditions, isn't that great? Chinese human rights really will improve quickly. Of course everyone guessed that the CCP won't do too much, but at the very least it will do something.
One other important thing that the US can't speak openly about and didn't say to me openly is that everyone is discussing a particular situation: in reality the North Korean nuclear threat has created a serious crisis all over Asia, a bigger crisis than people had expected. So in order to resolve this issue the US government hopes to come to some compromises with China, requiring China to come to certain compromises with North Korea on the issue of nuclear weapons. If this method can bring genuine contributions to securing peace in Asia, then I think for our Chinese people to sacrifice a little is necessary, there's nothing we can do.
So for the US not to initiate a resolution condemning Chinese human rights violations, this may have some relationship with Western governments' weak stance on China, but you could also say that
it's not directly related.
But the question you just asked is very important, that is, why have Western governments been so weak on democracy and human rights issues on China? They have one stance towards the Soviet Union and another towards China; one stance on South Africa and another on China, even to the point that they use completely different standards. Because I have been working on these issues for many years, so I have come in direct contact with these issues. These are things that average citizens are even less able to understand, and will feel a greater contrast with their governments. Why is there this phenomenon?
In my analysis there are a few reasons. First, the CCP's diplomatic bribery tactics have been relatively successful. It uses major Western companies to deal with western politicians, allowing them to indirectly influence western governments. This tactic is quite successful. After Western governments are interfered with in this way, for a period of time they aren't able to think of a way to adapt to or to deal with this method, so they are greatly influenced by the Chinese government. Thus, their policies seem extremely weak, appearing unusually weak on China.
The Western governments can condemn an African nation, and can even attack a middle sized countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, but somehow doesn't dare to criticize the CCP. This is very strange.
Also, the Chinese government utilizes the conflicts between Europe and the US to sow discord between the two. Then the two sides will compete to kiss up to the Chinese government. Westerners feel disgusted by this situation. We've talked in private with numerous Western governments about these issues. They also feel disgusted by it, but sometimes they feel like they have no alternative because there's a lot of practical political benefits there. Because the CCP's hands have already extended over here, it directly influences Western public opinion and influences, as well as the business that major western companies do.
So I feel that this is an issue we should all think about. It may not be that simple and easy to resolve, but if in the end everyone understands the CCP's schemes, after understanding them we all will have ways to deal with them. It's not something that can be resolved by just saying a few words; we all have to work hard.
(The Wei Jingsheng Foundation is responsible for the accuracy of this version of the English translation.)
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中文版
Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A144-W64
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A144-W64
Release Date: August 6, 2005
发布日：2005年8月6日
Topic: Interview with Wei Jingsheng: The Rise and Fall of the Chinese Communist Party
标题：专访魏京生：中共的崛起与崩溃
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
若有阅读中文的困难，请直接访问我们的网站：www.weijingsheng.org
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专访魏京生：中共的崛起与崩溃
【大纪元7月6日讯】大纪元特约记者林冲芝加哥报导/近日魏京生路经芝加哥，记者就中共的崛起与崩溃，中共和美国如何影响对方，法轮功维权，和中国民主运动等问题采访了他。
林冲：以您几十年的民主运动经验，如何看待现在中国大陆在政治、经济及世界影响力等各方面的现状？因为我们现在看到两种对中国完全不同的看法，一部份人认为中国在“崛起”，对世界的影响越来越大，并可能因中国的崛起而形成国际新秩序；而另外一种观点则持坚定的“中国崩溃论”，而且这种崩溃好像近在眼前。您如何看待这两种观点？
魏京生论述“崩溃论”和“崛起”这两种观点的相互联系
魏京生：其实这两种观点相互之间是有联系的，说中国“崛起”，当然有些人是从正面说，中国经济发展多么多么好，政治多么多么稳定，从美化的角度讲。但是从另一个角度看所谓“中国的崛起”，也就是中国的外交或对外关系方面越来越具有进攻性，而这，表现了中国政府的一种紧迫感。
从江泽民时代到胡锦涛时代变得越来越明显的一种企图，就是，企图用在对外事务方面的成功来解决国内一些无法解决的问题。所以说它和“中国崩溃论”又有很直接的联系。因为从中国的现象看，虽然在经济发展等某些方面发展很快，高楼大厦建起来了，但是另一方面也存在着非常严重的问题，甚至不是一般的严重，而是非常的严重。搁在别的国家可能已经崩溃了，但中国还勉强维持着，也正是因为这种局势，压迫得中国政府，使得中国共产党觉得无法解决了，除非放弃它的政权，否则无法解决，那么它又不愿意放弃政权，它能想到的一条路就是向外扩张，所以它的扩张企图越来越明显，动作也越来越大，所以给人的一个直观的印象就是，中国越来越强大，似乎在崛起，但这正是危机的一种表现。
胡锦涛上台之后
林冲：您的魏京生基金会最近发表很多中国国内的人权人士遭到了中共的威胁与虐待，呼吁国际社会对中共新一轮的镇压表示关注的消息。胡锦涛自上台后很多人曾对他抱有很大希望，觉得他有可能成为中国的戈尔巴乔夫，但几乎同时，他就用大规模抓捕异议人士、强力镇压公民维权和进一步加大对法轮功的打压力度，打破了人们的这一希望，并在意识形态领域加紧控制，在您看来，胡锦涛为何会有这样的表现？为何当时有人会对其抱有希望？
魏京生：我想，一方面是人们有一种良好的、善良的愿望吧，总希望共产党里能出来一个明智一点的人，向社会做一些让步，这样整个国家可以躲过一场灾难。但共产党就利用了人们的这种良好的愿望来做宣传，来为胡锦涛当吹鼓手。所以造成了一段时间人们纷纷议论：胡锦涛多么有希望。你跟他说什么都听不进去，（他认为）胡锦涛就是一好人，整个就是一个中国的戈尔巴乔夫。
但是人们忘记了一点，就是，他本质上，是一个专制独裁政权的统治者，他要为这个统治阶级服务，他怎么可能做这些让步？他怎么可能放弃共产党的一党专政呐？所以他必然的做法就是：用他的行动来粉碎大家的这种愿望。
他上台了，他要执政了，那么他就要负责了，他就要去维护这个政权，那么他必然就是要压迫老百姓，大肆抓捕异议人士，镇压各种的宗教团体。所有他认为威胁到他政权的东西，他都要用强硬的手段来对付，所以这是一种必然现象。
很重要的一点就是在大家越来越清楚的看到这种现象了。而且他暴露了本来面目后，激起了人们更多的反抗。比如说法轮功朋友们的反抗越来越明显，旗帜越来越鲜明，我想这在很大程度上就是被共产党政权给逼反的，是官逼民反。所以这种关系，就是老百姓与共产党的这种关系，我想最终只能有一个可能的结局，就是，共产党的一党专政结束掉，重新建立一个民主的、自由的、人们都有基本权力的、基本人权的这样一个社会。我想这也是大家所希望的吧。
中共和美国如何影响对方
林冲：今年（2005年）的日内瓦人权大会，美国决定今年暂时不提案谴责中国的人权记录。而且前一阵在处理中共外交官陈用林出逃寻求庇护的问题上，澳洲政府更是表现出了和一个民主国家不相称的态度。您认为为何这些老牌的民主国家在民主、人权、自由的普世价值面前会有如此的表现？西方对前共产苏联的围堵可以说倾尽全力，但为何对中共却网开一面？
魏京生分析美国决定今年暂时不提案谴责中共的人权记录的深层原因
魏京生：我想，这个问题讲起来稍微复杂一点。你比如说今年美国决定暂时不提谴责的议案，这个事情我立即与美国政府，就是美国国务院进行了磋商，那么美国国务院的助理国务卿本人和我讲了几点重要的原因。
第一点就是说，过去的这种关注中国人权的方法不能说没效果，但效果不是那么明显。那么他们想试着改变一下做法，就是说，对共产党做出一定的妥协，要求共产党答应一些条件，共产党确实也答应了一系列的条件。那么他们说试验一年，给它一点机会，它要是不能完全达到这些条件，那么我们还恢复过去的做法；如果它能答应这些条件，那不是很好嘛，中国人权确实可以很快的改善。当然大家都估计共产党不会做的太多，但是至少也不会一点不做。
其中还有一个很重要的就是美国政府不能公开说的，也没有对我公开说，就是，大家都议论到的一个情况，实际上，北朝鲜的核问题造成了亚洲地区很严重的危机，比人们想象的还要大的危机，那么美国政府为了解决这个问题，希望对中国做出一定的让步，要求中国在北朝鲜核问题上也做出一定的让步。如果这个做法能对保障亚洲的和平有真正的贡献，我想，有的时候我们中国人做出一点牺牲可能也是必须的，没有办法。
所以基于这些原因，造成了这次暂时不提案谴责中国人权的议案。这和西方政府普遍的这种软弱的态度可以说有关系，也可以说不是有很直接的关系。
但是，您刚才提到的这个问题也很重要，就是西方政府为什么在民主、人权的问题上会表现的这么软弱？对苏联一个态度，对中国一个态度；对南非一个态度，对中国一个态度，甚至使用完全不同的标准。因为我多年来都是直接在操作这些事情，所以我接触到的这些事情呐，是一般老百姓更加不能理解的，甚至是很大的反差，为什么会有这个现象？
我分析有这么几个原因。第一，中共的外交收买，策略比较成功。它用西方的大企业来对付西方的政治家，来间接的影响西方政府，这个策略相当成功。西方政府在受到这些干扰之后，一时半会儿还没有想到适应它或对付它的方法，所以说受到了中国政府极大的这种影响，那么，他们的政策就显得非常的软弱，对中国显得异乎寻常的软弱。.
他可以谴责一个非洲国家，甚至可以攻打一个中等国家，像伊拉克、阿富汗这样的国家，但是，居然就是不敢批评中共，这是很奇怪的事情。
而且，中国政府还利用欧洲和美国之间的矛盾挑拨双方之间的关系，然后让双方来竞争，拍中国政府的马屁，这种情况西方人也觉得非常的恶心，西方的各国政府我们私下里也谈到这些问题，他们也觉得很恶心，但是有时又觉得无可奈何，因为有很多现时的政治利益，因为共产党的手已经伸到这方面来了，它直接影响到了西方的舆论，影响了西方大企业的生意。
所以在这方面我觉得，这是我们大家都要思考的一个问题，可能不是那么简单容易解决，但是，最终共产党的阴谋被大家了解了、理解了之后，我们大家还是有办法对付它，也不是一句话就能解决的，我们大家还要努力就是了。
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