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The Wei Jingsheng Foundation greets all the workers of both United States and China for a rightful Labor Day. 籍此美国劳工节日，魏京生基金会向美国与中国的劳工们表示问候。我们愿与大家一起为共同的权益而努力。
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Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A148-W67 魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A148-W67
Release Date: September 4, 2005 发布日：2005年9月4日
Topic: HUANG Ciping Invited as an Expert on Labor to Appear at Voice of America "Strait Talk" TV/Radio Call-in Show Discussing Labor Issues on Both Sides of Taiwan Strait 标题：黄慈萍受邀参加美国之音“海峡论谈”节目，就台湾发生的泰国劳工暴动谈中国大陆与台湾的劳工问题
Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end) 此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
Note: Please use "Simplified Chinese (GB2312)" encoding to view the Chinese parts of this release. If this mail does not display properly in your email program, please visit: http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2005/report2005-09/HuangCP050904VOAlaborA148-W67.htm which contains identical information.
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HUANG Ciping Invited as an Expert on Labor to Appear at Voice of America (VOA) "Strait Talk" TV/Radio Call-in Show Discussing Labor Issues on Both Sides of Taiwan Strait
On August 28, HUANG Ciping appeared on VOA's "Across the Strait Show" on behalf of the Wei Jingsheng Foundation. The topic was about the labor issues on both sides of the Taiwan Strait, initiated by the strong unrest by the Thailand laborers in Taiwan during the previous weekend.
The one-hour long call-in show was held simultaneously both in Washington DC and in Taiwan, mainly hosted by VOA's Peggy Chang. It was broadcast both via television and radio to both sides of the Taiwan Strait during the prime hour on Sunday, with phone lines open to the callers from both Mainland China and Taiwan.
After the appearance, the Wei Jingsheng Foundation received positive feedbacks from VOA audiences and we would like to express our gratitude for your encouragement for our stand in support of Mainland Chinese workers rights.
The whole show is available on VOA's website, or at our websites at: www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2005/HuangCP050828VOAlabor.rm and at the top of the homepage of www.chinalaborunion.org which is a website sponsored by the Wei Jingsheng Foundation with primary effort of promoting Chinese workers' rights.
In this newsletter, we provide you HUANG Ciping's answers to Ms. Peggy Chang's questions, although the whole interview was conducted in a different order. Please notice that this English version is only a brief translation of the Chinese original. __ __ __
VOA's question: As an expert in the field of Laborers' and human rights, what is your opinion on the Thailand laborers' unrest in Taiwan recently?
HUANG Ciping's answer: My first reaction is sorrow. Taiwan has gotten wealthy fairly recently after the Taiwanese' hard work. Now it has a good living standard, as well as employing outside laborers in massive numbers. In the earlier days of Taiwan, many of you also had to leave to work outside of your homeland, in an effort to save enough money for home. This memory should still be fresh. For people who have this memory, one expects that they would treat the foreign workers of similar rank much kinder. Nevertheless, the selfish nature of humankind makes people place money above human rights. As one gets wealthier, one often forgets the pain from the past wounds and becomes unkind to the less fortunate poor. There were over one thousand people participating in the unrest this time. They also took less peaceful approaches, which indicates their conflict and resentment. So the Taiwanese should really take this event as an opportunity to start some self-examination.
The second reaction however is hope. This event has resulted in big attention in Taiwan, as well as the world. It indicates that the issue of laborers' rights and human rights are indeed receiving some attention. Of course, we do not condone the less peaceful approaches, but let us wish the protest were strong enough to give a wake-up call. After the break out of the laborers' unrest, vice-president of Taiwan Annette Lu said, "it is a shame for Taiwanese human rights, and costs this country's reputation". This statement indicates that, to the least, Taiwan's administration knows about "shame", which would be the important step. Taiwan is the "window on democracy" in Asia. If Taiwan's administration wants to maintain this reputation, they should pay attention to human rights. I have some confidence on this front.
Finally, I feel the pain for our Mainland Chinese workers. In comparison to the Thailand laborers in Taiwan, I think our Mainland Chinese laborers are much more miserable. The Thailand laborers were able to negotiate with the investigation group, providing 16 items of demand. I am truly envious. I am sure the Mainland laborers would also be envious. In comparison, they have their limbs bound, their mouths sealed. They do not have their opportunity to present "16 items of demand". Their leaders would be put in prison and even disappear or die mysteriously. I do not even know if the average worker in the Mainland would know of this unrest with full and truthful coverage. __ __ __
VOA's question: What is your view of Taiwan's attitude and treatment on this event?
HUANG Ciping's answer: I think Taiwan's administration, such as their Labor Bureau, has reacted reasonably. They sent the investigation group to listen to these laborers' opinion and were able to accept most of the petitions and resolve the problem in about one day's span. At least, there is some degree of freedom in Taiwan, as well as the voice of opposition parties. There is also a free press in Taiwan, and the opposition party has expressed its opinions as they monitor events. This attention has helped the administration to resolve the issue more constructively.
However, there are some details of the settlement and approach I might not be in full agreement with, in particular the dispersal of the leaders and correspondingly reduced laborers' quotas, which might lead the others consider these actions as "revenge".
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VOA's question: How do you consider Taiwan's treatment of its own Taiwanese laborers? Are they different from the treatment of the outsiders or Mainlanders?
HUANG Ciping's answer: Honestly, I do not know the circumstances in depth. However, since I have not heard of violent protests and riots, I would assume it is reasonable. There has been a lot of economical progress along with rising living standards in Taiwan in recent years, which obviously marks a significant contribution by the local workers. However, exactly due to the same rise in standards, the local workers become higher priced. For more profit, businesses turn to the areas/countries for cheaper labor; this is the tendency of the whole world. The cheaper labor results in an unemployment problem for the locals, which could cause some resentment. I learned that Taiwan does have some unemployment problems recently because of the cheaper laborers from outside.
Presently, Taiwan has not employed Mainland laborers on a large-scale. But we could predict that the treatment of the Mainlanders would not be much better than that of the laborers from other poor countries. They would also be subject to low wages, strict control, delay/deduction of bonuses/wages, etc. Money will overcome all the shared culture, language, and history.
This contrast touches a universal problem of how a wealthy country should treat the workers from a poor country. This problem is a basic issue of human rights that needs the attention of the whole world. On one side, it has to do with basic human quality. On the other side, it relies on the institution and application of related laws and regulations. __ __ __
VOA's question: You have done in-depth research on Chinese workers rights. How are Chinese workers rights protected, via what kind of channels? Are they enough? What is the biggest challenge to protect Chinese workers rights?
HUANG Ciping's answer: On the surface, Chinese workers' rights are protected by law. However, the laws are only for the beautification of the Chinese government without much realization. For this reason, we at the Wei Jingsheng Foundation not only have been promoting concern for Chinese worker rights internationally, but have also advocated putting more in action a collection of related Chinese laws and news items related to labor in an effort to be delivered to our workers inside China. By doing so, we hope to help workers to learn and improve themselves, in an effort to rationally and lawfully defend their own rights.
However, all the problems come to the root of one-party dictatorship by the Chinese Communists. There is no democracy and fairness in the "Socialist" China. There is no independent and trustworthy workers' union that could truly speak and act on workers' behalf. There is also no independent news media in China. You ask if workers rights are "enough", this word make me feel sorrow, because this vocabulary is irrelevant to Chinese workers. The Chinese workers have fallen to the bottom of society and suffer more than enough misery. I have too many examples to list these miseries. The whole world knows of the continuing deadly mining disasters in China. Take this spring/summer season as an example, within 6 weeks, we know at least 693 persons have disappeared or died from these mining accidents. Not only do these Chinese workers have very low wages, they are often not paid as agreed to as well. The peasant workers are even more miserable.
Many years ago, the Chinese Communists used "workers and peasants will be the masters" as the excuse to put themselves in power. However, not only have the peasants always been the "untouchable class" in the society, the workers have fallen into the bottom as well. There are people who claim that China is really a "Capitalist" country now. Well, one might agree. Using the Chinese Communist vocabulary, this capitalism definitely has its own "Chinese character" which is forced by the suppression of a dictatorship. What is happening in China now is even crueler and less humanitarian that the so-called "beginning period of capitalism" condemned by Karl Marx.
To summarize, I think the biggest challenge to protecting Chinese workers is the lack of independent unions and lack of freedom of the press. __ __ __
VOA's question: We all know that Chinese workers are cheap. From the news media, we often hear about the deaths of Chinese miners in accidents. Please tell us more.
HUANG Ciping's answer: First, let me emphasize that the countless number of industrial accidents in China are mostly not "accidents", but really are the foreseeable result of a lack of safety regulations and simple care for the worker's conditions. Taking the deadly ChongQing's accidents that happened in December 2003 as an example, you can see the faults of the system, lack of human rights, and lack of respect to human lives from the Chinese government, officials, and all those in power. These problems have existed in China for a long time; however, they have reached a terminal stage now. In the years 2003, the number of Chinese coalmine workers killed on the job is as high as 6,702, even according to the data published by the Chinese government itself. This number is 80% of the casualty of the whole world.
To summarize, there are several major problems threatening Chinese workers: 1. The government lacks the concept of law and basic human rights, which leads to the ignorance of officials who do not care about workers' lives. Chinese workers have worked under severe conditions without basic safety guarantees for a long time. 2. While the Chinese government officials spent money at an outrageous pace and luxury, the factories and coalmines lack funding for improvements for safer and modern working conditions. Some mines have suffered endless casualties, yet their leaders' one-month bonus surpasses the "compensation fee" it offers for each lost worker's life. 3. Unfair practices of forced retirement and unemployment cause the workers who kept their jobs to work over-loaded, thus resulting in a decrease of safety. There is no safety net of "social security" and "workers security" as boasted by the Chinese Communists. 4. After an accident, the related departments have no remorse or regret, which once more reveals the low and helpless status of the Chinese workers. One month ago, after a poor mine had a deadly explosion, they spent more than 200,000 RenMinBi to buy silence from the reporters, in an effort to prevent public knowledge. 5. The severe working condition has not only reduced workers' life expectance, but also causes them to lose their jobs, and their families to suffer together. 6. The workers who lose their means of survival have to petition, suicide, protest, etc. But they will either be ignored or suppressed. In the last few years Chinese society has gone to an extreme disparity. The rich are getting richer, while the poor are getting poorer. Each year the protests and demonstrations are in the tens thousands, along with an increase of violence. If workers were treated fairly, would they be resorting to violence? __ __ __
VOA's question: To your knowledge, are there a lot of Chinese laborers working in Taiwan illegally? What kind of treatment do they receive?
HUANG Ciping's answer: In the past, Chinese fishermen would enter Taiwan illegally. This is sort of like gambling. They could have lost their lives. Even if they are successful, they have no official recognized identity and have to work hard for a low reward. Yet, they would still use their lives as a stake, in an effort to achieve a better life for themselves and their families. Why they have to do so, to use our old Chinese saying "is because the nasty politics is more dangerous than the tigers". We the Chinese are hard working people and have been successful in many foreign countries and in many fields, yet we have a difficulty to survive in our own homeland, this is the truly grieving situation.
After they arrived in Taiwan, there are some who continue further to the USA or other Western countries, partly due to their higher dreams, and/or due to their conflicts with the Taiwan bosses. __ __ __
VOA's question: Do you think that Taiwan should let Chinese workers work in Taiwan? What are the current obstacles? What is the reason that you think Taiwan closed its door at this time?
HUANG Ciping's answer: Once, there was an estimated tens of thousands of illegal Mainland workers in Taiwan, mostly fishermen who had long working hours with hard work. Recently, Taiwan has been more open, more Mainlanders enter. If the Taiwanese government wants to effectively stop the wave of illegal workers, it would be better for them to consider opening more legal channels. Of course, it would take some effort and time, with real attention to foreign workers' management, along with sound laws and monitoring systems.
Why is Taiwan not open to the Mainlander workers? There are several reasons that make the issue more complicated than for smaller nations. One is the large population of Mainland China. Another is the lack of a language barrier, which makes the management tricky. Another is the high capacity of the Mainland people. Lastly, the political outlook across the Taiwan Strait complicates issues. In comparison, these difficulties have similarities and differences to those of the Taiwanese businessmen who want to invest in Mainland China. The Taiwanese should weigh the pros and cons of these two traffics and make their choice. In my own opinion, the answer is clear, not to mention that the resources Taiwanese businessmen bring to Mainland China have been indirectly used to help the Chinese government build up its military stockpile, in aim against Taiwan. __ __ __
VOA's question: What is your opinion of the major differences in the field of workers' protection and workers' rights for the workers across the Taiwan Strait? What measures should the two sides take in an effort to improve their treatment of workers?
HUANG Ciping's answer: The biggest differences between the two sides of the Taiwan Strait is that in Taiwan, there are laws, there is the monitoring of the news media, there is criticism from the opposition party, and the expression and willingness of the Taiwanese governmental leaders to move on the road to freedom. Mainland China does not have these processes. Exactly because of the power these processes give to workers, the Chinese government is very much afraid and thus they suppress them all.
However, in comparison to Western democratic countries, Taiwan still needs to make improvements, while the Mainland has to start from virtually zero. We might make different policies and regulations in detail, but the basic direction should be the same. Human rights are the shared values of the whole world, which of course includes the protection and defense of workers' rights. Taking Taiwan as an example, it started to make progress in workers rights in the 1980's, as during the same time it started the democratic progress. Therefore, the true protection of Mainland Chinese workers requires the start of a Chinese democratic progress, along with the guarantee of basic human rights. And the further development of the democratic system in Taiwan would also bring the further progress in its treatment of the workers. __ __ __
VOA's question: According to your long time experience paying attention to workers' rights from Washington DC, do you think there are things from America or the international society that the governments on both sides of the Taiwan Strait could learn?
HUANG Ciping's answer: The Western democratic countries have quite mature laws, organizations, and measures that both sides of the Taiwan Strait may learn from. But at the root, there are two areas that are the most important. Ones is the law set by the government that enforces the basic rights of the workers. The other is the functionality of the independent workers' unions.
The US government laws have clearly defined issues such as age discrimination, sexual discrimination, minimum wage, safety, medical expenses, etc. The basics are posted in the workers common areas, along with toll free numbers for complaints. These laws empower the tiny individuals to get their deserved rights and protection. We often hear of various lawsuits against some major business entities, along with compensation, etc.
Of course, success is also associated with the education of the public in general. Both are connected. The biggest "achievement" of the Chinese Communists has been the destruction of traditional Chinese culture and the deterioration of morals, which ends up as an excuse for them to advance totalitarian rule.
In the big companies and high-education institutions in the US, there are unions that are independent of employers and speak on behalf of employees. America's national organization for workers, the AFL-CIO, has been instrumental in an even higher scale of effort for workers such as influencing government policy especially in the fields of export/import, foreign labor management, as well as the monitoring of workers conditions, especially safety, etc. Next weekend is the holiday weekend of Labor Day, when each city has various celebrations. These celebrations on one side reflect the respect of workers, on the other side give the public an indirect education.
It is clear to me that both Taiwan and Mainland China must be on the road of freedom and democracy. However, to get connected to and be recognized by the international society, we must learn something good from the West, especially to accept the value of democracy and freedom. This direction will not only be determined by the political system, but by the leaders' foresight and determination and the all the citizens' longing and agreement for such a kind of value system. In my opinion, only a democratically elected, and consistently monitored and criticized government might be able to win the trust and respect from its people, and be fair on labor issues. In this regard, both sides of the Taiwan Strait have a lot of work to do, which is also the target of the Wei Jingsheng Foundation.
I thank you for provide me this opportunity to answer your questions.
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This is of the property of the Wei Jingsheng Foundation. Please give the proper credit with our website at: WWW.WeiJingSheng.org and www.ChinaLaborUnion.org）
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Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A148-W67 魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A148-W67
Release Date: September 4, 2005 发布日：2005年9月4日
Topic: HUANG Ciping Invited as an Expert on Labor to Appear at Voice of America "Strait Talk" TV/Radio Call-in Show Discussing Labor Issues on Both Sides of Taiwan Strait 标题：黄慈萍受邀参加美国之音“海峡论谈”节目，就台湾发生的泰国劳工暴动谈中国大陆与台湾的劳工问题
Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end) 此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
Note: Please use "Simplified Chinese (GB2312)" encoding to view the Chinese parts of this release. If this mail does not display properly in your email program, please visit: http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2005/report2005-09/HuangCP050904VOAlaborA148-W67.htm which contains identical information.
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黄慈萍受邀参加美国之音 “海峡论谈”节目，谈中国大陆与台湾的劳工问题
2005年8月28日，黄慈萍执行主任代表魏京生基金会参加了美国之音张佩芝及台湾中广新闻叶柏毅主持的“海峡论谈”节目，就台湾发生的泰国劳工暴动谈中国大陆与台湾的劳工问题。台湾国际劳工协会的顾玉玲秘书长及两岸的观众与听众也共同参加了长达一小时的讨论。
节目播出后，魏京生基金会受到了大陆的工人与农民工听众的积极与正面的反响。
整个节目可在美国之音与魏京生基金会的网站上收看到： (魏京生基金会主网站的链接为：www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2005/HuangCP050828VOAlabor.rm) 及由魏京生基金会主持的中国团结工会的网站主页上部收看到(www.chinalaborunion.org)。
以下为黄慈萍主任就美国之音主持人张佩芝女士的问题所作的回答。回答顺序与节目内容有所不同，并在节目播出后有所编辑与改动。 __ __ __
问：身为一名劳工问题和人权问题专家，您对最近在台湾发生的泰国劳工暴动有什么看法？
答：首先是悲哀。台湾不久前才经历过艰苦奋斗而步入小康，生活水平上升，开始大量雇佣外籍劳工。早期的台湾，也有不少人背井离乡，到外地或外国打工，辛苦攒钱寄回家。这种记忆应该不是很遥远的。怀有这样记忆的人，应该善待外籍劳工。可是人性自私的本质让人总会把金钱看得比人权重要，自己稍微富裕起来，就好了伤疤忘了痛，就对不幸的穷人们耀武扬威了。这次暴动参与的人数上千，举动比较激烈，表明劳资双方的矛盾严重，工人们积怨很深，实在值得让台湾人反省。
其次是对台湾前景抱有希望。我看到这件事情在台湾和世界引起很大关注，感到人权及劳工问题已经深入人心。激烈举动固然不是人们所期望的，但是只有激烈到一定的程度，才足以让人们惊醒，给以足够的关心和警惕。劳工暴动事件发生后，副总统吕秀莲说这“使台湾的人权蒙羞，国家形象受损”，这说明台湾当局至少是“知耻”的。这是很重要的一步。台湾是亚洲的“民主之窗”，如果台湾当局希望维护这个形象，他们就应对人权问题加以关注。我对这条比较有信心。
再就是为我们大陆劳工们的处境更加感到痛心。大陆的劳工在国内和泰籍劳工在台湾的处境相比，不知道悲惨了多少倍。台湾外籍劳工最后还可以和调查组对话，提出16条要求，这真让我羡慕。我想这也是大陆劳工们所羡慕的，他们的嘴巴和手脚都被封住了，连提这种16条要求的机会都没有。带头“闹事”的人，多半都是被投入监牢，甚至莫名其妙地失踪或死亡。我甚至不知道，大陆普通工人们是不是可以全面地听到看到这次台湾外籍劳工事件的报道呢。 __ __ __
问：您如何看台湾有关单位处理这一事件的态度和办法？
答：我觉得台湾当局，比如劳务局还是做出了应有的反应，他们派出调查组，听取劳工们的意见，几乎在一天内就平息了风波，接受了外籍劳工的大部分诉求。而且台湾毕竟有一定程度的自由，有反对党的声音，有新闻自由，在野党对这个事件发表了种种监督性的意见，这多少推动了执政党的政府积极处理好这个事件。
不过对苛待劳工的管理人员给予处分的同时，据说还把带头暴动的外籍劳工也给“依法送办并解雇”了，这让我非常遗憾。听说被遣送回国的劳工可能高达200多人。台湾劳委会还做出决定，减少高雄捷运公司800名劳工外聘名额。在我看来，这差不多算是“秋后算账”，其结果是打击了为工人们争取权益带头人的积极性，让后人胆怯退让。这种做法多少和“接受诉求”相互矛盾。如果诉求是公正的，那么带头诉求的人也基本是正确的，至于手法上的问题，要根据当时的情形而论。如果有正当的途径可以解决问题，我想什么人也不会走极端的。有桥可以走，为什么要跳河呢？ __ __ __
问：您如何看台湾对待一般台湾劳工的待遇？和对待外籍或者大陆劳工待遇是否有所不同？
答：我对台湾劳工待遇没有深入研究。不过我想，只要没有听说激烈暴动、对抗，就说明待遇还是可以的吧？台湾最近的经济水平相当不错，大家的生活水平都提高了，台湾在世界上算得上是“小富”之国。这个进步，台湾当地的劳工做出了不可磨灭的贡献。不过正是因为生活水平的提高，台湾本土的劳力价格日渐升高，资本家为了多赚钱，就向穷国索取劳工 -- 这是全世界的趋向。这样一来，台湾本土劳工的待遇对某些人来说就成了“没有待遇” -- 失业了。据说台湾目前的失业率蛮高的，很多劳工的工作都被外籍廉价劳工代替了，本土劳工自然会有怨恨。
台湾目前还没有大规模地雇佣大陆劳工。不过可以预见，大陆劳工的待遇将和一切穷国外籍劳工差不多，属于下等公民，拿低工资，受严格管理，被拖欠扣发奖金工资等等。在金钱面前，什么“同文同种”、“同根同类”、“相煎何太急”之类的，可能都不做考虑了。
其实富国对穷国外籍工人的问题，是个普遍问题，是基本的人权问题，需要全世界人们来关心。这一方面与人的素质有关，另一方面则由有关法律条例的健全与执行所决定。
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问：您对中国劳工权益有很深入的研究。中国工人的权益是通过哪些渠道得到保障的？这样是否足够？中国工人权力无法得到保障最大的挑战是什么？
答：中国工人的权益表面上是应该通过法律来保障的，但是文字上说得漂亮的东西，在中国能有几个能实现的？为此，除了在国际范围为我们的工人同胞呼吁，我们魏京生基金会更收集了许多有关劳工的法律与新闻，并向中国大陆的工人同胞们发送，希望冀此提高工人们的法律意识，与政府及企业老板们进行有理有节的维权活动。
其实，中共的一党专制才是问题的症结所在。“社会主义”的中国根本没有民主与公平，也没有独立的、真正可以代表工人说话的工会。中国也没有独立的报纸电台。所以“足够”这个词，是根本用不上的，也是让我听了辛酸的词汇。不要说“足够”，工人遭受的待遇，真是惨不忍睹，他们已经沦为中国的最底层。我有太多的事例来说明他们的悲惨处境。大家都知道最近两年来频频发生的矿山事故，死了多少人哪！就在全世界谴责呼吁的时候，今年春夏季六周内还有693人死于或失踪于矿难。中国工人们工资低廉不说，拖欠工资不发的事情常有发生。西安一地就有80万血汗钱被拖欠。而农民工的景况尤为悲惨。
当年，中国共产党以“工农当家做主”为幌子，夺取了政权。然而不仅仅农民一向不过是下等公民，现在工人们也一样沦落到社会的最低层。有人说现在中国实际上真正的是“资本主义”社会，也可以这么说。套用中共的说法是：“带有中国特色的”、无产阶级专政下的“资本主义”，比他们所批判的马克思说的“资本主义的初期阶段”还残酷，还没有人性。
总之，我认为中国工人权力无法得到保障的最大挑战是没有独立工会和新闻自由。一个人的喉咙被卡断了，他的呻吟会被谁听见呢？又会被谁关心、帮助、与改善呢？ __ __ __
问：中国工人劳动成本低廉，众所周知，其中在媒介当中我们更常听到中国矿工因灾难而丧生的事件，请您进一步给我们介绍这个情况。
答：首先我要强调的是，中国工业界的多次事故，绝大多数都不是“天灾”和“意外”，而是道道地地的“人祸”。从2003年12月底重庆井喷事件可以看出，事故的引发根本不是“人力不可抗拒的意外”，而是制度、人权的种种弊病、缺陷，以及中国政府、官员、各类掌权者对百姓生命缺少基本敬重的后果。这些问题在中国长期存在，目前已经到了病入膏肓的阶段。仅以2003年为例，中国煤矿工业死亡人数按中国政府的统计数就高达6，702名，占该工业全世界死亡人数的80%。这是非常触目惊心的。
综合说来，中国工人的工作条件有如下几个严重的问题：
1）政府缺少法制手段和基本人权观念，导致单位官员玩忽职守，对工人的生死漠不关心，使得长期以来中国工人在缺少基本安全保障的恶劣条件下工作。
2）在中国政府官员的腐败挥霍掉了大笔资金的同时，工厂和煤矿缺少资金，土法上马，迫使工人在相当原始的工作条件下承受生命危险。有的矿区事故不断，而那里每个死亡工人的“抚恤金”还没有他们“领导们”因为“超产”得的一个月的奖金多。这已不光是“血汗钱”，是“卖命钱”啊！
3）不合理的“工龄买断”造成留用的工人不得不在超负荷的状态下工作，安全指数因此大大下降。他们没有中共所吹嘘的最基本的“社会保险”与“劳动保险”。
4）事故发生以后，相关部门缺乏内疚和反思的态度令人愤慨，再次让人们感到中国工人人权状况的低下和无助。比如一个月前，河南省汝州市寄料镇的一个煤矿发生矿难后，消息以２０万元人民币给“买了下来”，以防媒体的报道。
5）恶劣工作条件不仅缩短工人的寿命，而且使得他们丢失工作，全家因此陷入悲惨境地。
6） 无法生存的工人上访、自焚、静坐示威，得到的要么是漠视，要么是镇压。这些年来中国两极分化，贫富差距加大，以至于各地每年各种抗议活动以数万起计。恶性的暴力的事件也频频发生。如果不是欺压太甚，官逼民反，又有谁愿意铤而走险？ __ __ __
问：就您所知，目前是否有很多大陆劳工偷渡到台湾工作？这些劳工的待遇又是如何？
答：过去大陆渔民偷渡台湾的情形很严重。偷渡是一种赌博，偷渡过程中可能丧生，偷渡成功了也是最下等的黑民，没有身份，工作辛苦，报酬低廉。但是他们还是愿意以生命为赌注，为着自己和家人的将来而创出一条生路。这么困难还要偷渡，是因为“苛政猛于虎”。我们中国人勤劳努力，在各国各行各业都很成功，然而却在自己的土地上难以生存，这实在是我们的悲哀。
而偷渡了以后，还是有少人再次偷渡——到美国或其它西方国家。一方面因为有更高的梦想，一方面因为和台湾老板有很深的矛盾。前几年就听说好几起台湾渔船遭大陆渔工挟持到美国加拿大等国的事件。一方面台湾船长本身就是帮助偷渡的人，一方面也因为他们对大陆劳工比较苛刻。
不过听说最近台湾工作市场不景气，偷渡的现象有所缓解。 __ __ __
问：您认为台湾是否应该开放中国大陆劳工到台湾工作？目前障碍是什么？您认为台湾目前不开放的原因是什么？
答：曾估计在台的大陆非法劳工有几万人。估计多数为渔工，因为渔工作业时间长、劳动辛苦。最近台湾海岸更加开放，偷渡来台的大陆人包括“大陆妹”增多。台湾政府若要设法限制非法大陆劳工来台，可能就要考虑合法的渠道。但是我觉得这个合法渠道的真正建立，还需要一些努力和时间。这也在于台湾要真正关注外籍劳工的管理，控制中介公司，建立良好法律和监督制度。
台湾目前不愿意对大陆劳工开放的原因，在我看来主要是大陆的情形比其他贫穷小国更复杂，一是人口太多，门一打开，可能如同洪水泛滥；一是大陆人语言障碍小，管理上有其特殊性；再就是大陆人的能量，可能也让台湾人有后怕吧；而海峡两岸的政治前景则更使开放的可能成为一种忌禁。相比较，这一系列的情况与困难与台商去大陆做生意有着不同但又相平行的条件与问题。然而，台湾的朋友们也应当想清楚了，是台商将资源带到大陆更糟，还是对大陆开放劳力市场更糟？权衡利弊，我想答案是明显的，切不要说那些资源已被间接地用以帮助中共加紧买枪造炮，来对付台湾。 __ __ __
问：您认为两岸劳工领域里，劳工权益的保障最大不同的地方在哪里？两岸分别应该采取什么措施，来改善对劳工的待遇？
答：台湾和大陆劳工权益保障的最大不同是，台湾有法，有新闻自由的监督，有在野党的监督，以及台湾当局领导人有迈向自由之路的表述与心愿。中国如果具有这些，我相信劳工们是会大大受益的。然而正因为此，中共当局非常害怕，对此进行压制与打击。
不过台湾和西方国家相比还是不完善。这方面，台湾有要改进的地方，而大陆则需从零做起。采取的具体措施可能会不同，但是基本方向却应该是一致的。人权是全世界共有的问题，不论哪个种族、肤色，基本人权都是一样的。这当然就包括对劳工权益的维护与保障。以台湾为例，至八十年代起，其劳工方面的进步正是与其民主过程相照印的。所以说，真正地能保障中国大陆的劳工及其权利的前提是大陆的民主化及其对人权的保障。而台湾民主的进一步发展也应能使其劳工权益得到进一步的保障。 __ __ __
问：根据您在美国华府长期关注人权劳工问题的经验，您认为美国或者国际上，在规范劳工权力问题上面有没有什么值得两岸政府借镜的？
答：西方国家有很多比较成熟的法律、组织、措施，非常值得大陆和台湾借鉴。这主要来自于两方面，一方面是政府立法，强行保障职工的基本权利，一方面是独立工会的作用。
政府的法律有许多明文规定，比如年龄歧视、性别歧视、最低工资额、安全保障、医疗费用等等。在美国公司里，这样的法律都贴在明显的地方，并附有申诉电话号码。在这个法律下，每个个人都不是渺小无助的，因为他们手中握有劳工法这个利器。我们常常可以听到，某某人被解雇后打官司，控告大公司，得到了多少多少赔偿等等，或是多少女工联合申诉工资不平等，得到了补偿等等。
当然这些与公民素质也有关系。两者相辅相承。中共这些年的最大“成就”就是严重地破坏了中国的传统文化，降低公民的道德规范，并以此为理由来反民主。我们常听到中共及其代言人声称“中国人不配民主”，因为“人们的素质太差”，云云。而这正说明中共的心虚，他们害怕人们团结起来，共同要求民主与公正。
美国的大公司、高等学府里，都有很强的工会组织。他们完全独立于资方、校方，是工人、职工基本权益的代言人。在工会下，个人的力量汇集成集体力量，常常让资方非常害怕。美国还有全国性的工会组织劳联产联，他们在促进国家立法、监督全国工人状况、影响政府制定进出口政策、输入外籍劳工方面起了很重要的的作用，有很强的声音。下周就是美国的劳工节了，美国各地都会有各种庆祝活动。这一方面显示了对劳工的尊重，另一方面则也是对大众的一个间接的教育。
台湾和大陆向自由民主前进是必然之路。目前工业国际化的趋势越来越甚，两岸要想和国际接轨，要想在国际市场上站稳脚跟，恐怕必须借鉴西方的优秀之处，尤其是其民主与自由的价值。但是这个借鉴，取决于整个国家的体制、领导人的眼光和魄力，也取决于全民族对人权自由的认同和向往。只有一个民选的、并且时时得到人民的监督与批评的政府才能是一个值得人民信任与尊敬的政府，才能在劳工问题上迈向公正平等。这方面，两岸都有相当多的工作要做。这也是我们魏京生基金会的工作目标。
谢谢您的问题。 __ __ __
魏京生基金会首发，请注明出处：WWW.WeiJingSheng.org）
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