Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A220-W111
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A220-W111
Release Date: July 22, 2006
发布日：2006年7月22日
Topic: Wei Jingsheng Invited to Appear at Voice of America "Pro and Con" TV/Radio Program on the Occasion of the 40th Anniversary of Chinese Cultural Revolution
标题：魏京生受邀参加美国之音电视/电台联播的“焦点对话”节目，讨论中国文革四十周年
Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
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Wei Jingsheng Invited to Appear at Voice of America "Pro and Con" TV/Radio Program on the Occasion of the 40th Anniversary of Chinese Cultural Revolution
Editor's Note:
On May 19, 2006, Mr. WEI Jingsheng was invited by Voice of America's "Pro and Con" TV/Radio Program, to discuss the Cultural Revolution in China on the occasion of its 40th Anniversary. The video of this program can be viewed by visiting:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2006/WeiJS060519CulturalRevVOA.rm
The following is the excerpts of Mr. Wei's conversation.
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Host (H):
This May marked the 40th year since the eruption of the Cultural Revolution. Although the Ten-Year Calamity is considered one of the worst disasters in Chinese history, the Chinese government evades this period of history, exercising strict controls on the media and on commemoration events. Why does the Chinese government fear people openly discussing this period of history? What lessons should the Chinese people learn from the Cultural Revolution? What do people still lack when rethinking this movement today? Today we have invited two guests to discuss this topic with us. One of them is Wei Jingsheng, the well-known human rights activist and the President of the Wei Jingsheng Foundation. The other is Mr. Chen Kuide, editor-in-chief of the Internet magazine "Observe."
Mr. Wei, let's start with you - why do you think the Chinese government tries so hard to evade this period of history?
Wei Jingsheng (W):
The Cultural Revolution has two especially major characteristics. One of them is that as soon as Mao Zedong called for a revolt, many of the common people took the opportunity to revolt against Communist Party bureaucrats - this remains fresh in the memory of many Communist Party members. Another characteristic is that during the Cultural Revolution, they had to use the "proletarian dictatorship" to its limits in order to suppress these resistance movements. Owing to these two points, Deng Xiaoping and those in the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) governments that followed treat this subject as a taboo, fearing both that the people will revolt and that the people will say that they are the proletarian dictatorship. Thus, they do not let people talk about this topic.
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H:
With regards to Mao Zedong's saying that "rebellion is justified," currently there are some people, such as the New Left, that have some positive views. Among them, it is said that the Cultural Revolution rebellion helped to overturn some unfair social phenomena and some bureaucrats. How should we look at these views?
W:
When people revolt, there is a most prominent lesson - people all believe that if they revolt under the name of Mao Zedong, this gives them legitimacy. As a result, your revolt - because you performed it under Mao Zedong's name, is the same as revolting against the emperor while kneeling in front of him. When the emperor wanted to punish you, there would be nothing you could do about it. What the CCP especially fears is that after the common people have summarized this experience, they would not revolt under your name the next time they rose up against you. Therefore, they do not allow the common people to summarize these experiences and lessons.
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H:
In China there is a say that the "free airing of views" the CCP talks about has a certain element of the democratic spirit. Mr. Wei, we know that you have indeed deeply pondered the issue of lacking democracy in China. How do you look at this issue?
W:
I feel that under the circumstances that the common people cannot participate in public opinion or the media, nor do they have freedom of speech, the "four big freedoms" - the free airing of views, big character poster, and mass debate - have just given the common people that little bit of freedom. Of course, you can have people talking nonsense, just like how there is people speaking nonsense with the freedom of speech given in America. Yet this, of course, is not a reason to censure the four big freedoms. The reason Deng Xiaoping wanted to eliminate the four big freedoms was primarily because of the Democracy Wall. The Democracy Wall period was when the common people used the four big freedoms to criticize the government, causing the latter great dread.
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H:
For people outside to look at this, it seems like there is not enough reflection on the Cultural Revolution. Instead, there in fact are people who affirm the message of the Cultural Revolution. How do you explain this phenomenon?
W:
Chen Kuide had just mentioned the reasons why Deng Xiaoping banned the four big freedoms. If we completely go along with the Cultural Revolution led by Mao Zedong, then the four big freedoms do not seem so scary, because Mao Zedong could control them at any time. But the four big freedoms of the Democracy Wall period showed their might to Deng Xiaoping. Deng was able to topple Hua Guofeng's Whatever Faction by utilizing the power of the Democracy Wall. That is, the power of the people had already been able to intervene in the central authorities' political struggles, and they were quite powerful. Thus, the first thing he did after taking power was to eliminate the Democracy Wall. This is the result of the deep fear they felt when summarizing their experiences and lessons about common people taking advantage of opportunities to revolt.
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H:
So you believe that the biggest reason that China is avoiding the Cultural Revolution is their fear of the power of the people?
W:
This is half of it. Another half is that Deng Xiaoping realized that he did not need the people's democracy to stay in power, even though he did things in the name of democracy. He saw very clearly that he had better use proletarian dictatorship methods, after all, to deal with the common people. So he was unwilling to have people criticize the proletarian dictatorship. This is because the vast majority of the brutalities of the Cultural Revolution were caused by the proletarian dictatorship, as opposed to struggles among the people. The struggles between the organizations of the two factions were, in reality, brought about by Mao Zedong by employing proletarian dictatorship methods.
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H:
We just mentioned that the Cultural Revolution was the darkest period of Chinese history. But there are some Chinese intellectuals, such as the well-known poet Bei Dao, who once said that Chinese people are good at exorcising demons, that demons are actually within our own hearts, and that each one of us has our own demons. His meaning was that the people's reflection often attributes the scale and reasons for the Cultural Revolution to Mao Zedong and the Chinese communist regime of the past. Yet the Cultural Revolution was, after all, a movement of the entire populace. Do you think that the Chinese people themselves - the common people - have reflected on these events? I would like to ask Mr. Wei, because I know that during the Cultural Revolution, you had experience as a member of the Red Guard.
W:
Yes, yes, and moreover, I was a part of the Red Guard brigade that first began revolting. Now, many people are reflecting on these things from all different angles. Of course, what Bei Dao says is somewhat harsh. I think he was mainly referring to things nowadays. This is because many people themselves participated in the Cultural Revolution. People all have a tendency to try to find legitimacy for their actions in the past so as to make their hearts more at ease. At the least, this is a characteristic of the Chinese people.
Nowadays, people come up with all sorts of reasons to explain why the Cultural Revolution was good or reasonable. This is because the Cultural Revolution is something very complicated. As to people's actions and motivations, you cannot deny the fact that some people did not have evil motivations, or that their actions played a positive role. All of these are possible. But you cannot use this reasoning to talk about the entire Cultural Revolution, because the overall Cultural Revolution was a huge disaster. Everyone admits this. It is not only a few CCP cadres that were toppled and who think that it was a disaster; many common people were victims, too. Today they punish 5 percent of the population, tomorrow they punish another 5 percent -- in the end, if you take a look, and I fear that there is only 5 percent that were not punished yet. That is to say, the Cultural Revolution was a disaster to all the common people. Why did this disaster come about? This precisely is the issue upon which we must summarize experiences and lessons, as opposed to something upon which we can exonerate ourselves of our actions.
(Chen Kuide: This also reflects on the Chinese people, as we often lack a sense of repentance. We also lack religious feeling and feelings of guilt)
What Chen Kuide said makes sense. Many Chinese people lack the spirit of repentance. But why do we lack this spirit? This has to do with Chinese society lacking the spirit of tolerance. For instance, if someone were to repent now, saying, "I did it wrong," people would immediately take note of the person's bad side. This makes people fearful of repenting, as no one would pardon them for their past actions. I have felt that many friends I have met have strong feelings along these lines. I feel that this is one of the reasons why people are afraid to repent.
(Host: Historically, the Chinese people's lack of religious consciousness and sense of repentance is quite obvious when compared to other ethnicities. For example, Germany's repented quite strongly for World War II).
This is also directly related to the tolerance of the Polish and Jewish peoples. If people are never willing to tolerate others -- such as with China always being unable to forgive Japan for its actions -- then Japan will, on the contrary, be unwilling to repent. So it is a mutual relationship.
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H:
Just now, our two guests mentioned that one of the characteristics of the Great Cultural Revolution was the extreme brutality of the CCP internal struggles, and that inner-Party autocracy was pushed to its limits. The reason why the Chinese communist regime evades the Cultural Revolution is that a lot of things that happened then are originate from the same sources of things happening now. How strong do you feel this trait of the CCP autocracy --- inner-Party struggle -- still strong?
W:
The brutality of CCP inner-Party struggles has continued from the Soviet Union. Put another way, this is how this kind of dictatorial, autocratic Party operates: it is both a dictatorial, autocratic political system, and also carries a definite religious tone: it is very fanatical and unreasonable. So it is more ruthless than the autocratic regimes of ancient times. When it is so ruthless, it is just like the mutual relationship I described a moment ago: people become especially unable to admit their mistakes. Not only are they unable to admit their mistakes, they also have a strong tendency to retaliate against others. I have heard of some situations -- and things inside the Party are like this -- that when they knock over people, they do it in ways not much different from the Cultural Revolution. It does not matter what methods I use, I will definitely take you down. Other wise, you might take me down and leave me to die without a burial. This has created the brutality in politics.
(Chen Kuide: The Cultural Revolution brought the CCP's unification of church and state to the extreme. Mao Zedong both wanted to be the Emperor under Heaven and tutor to the people -- a ruler and teacher merged into one. They brought ideological dominance upon the people through brainwashing and forceful feeding: this was the most devastating part of the Cultural Revolution. This domination is something the CCP has never dared to give up.)
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H:
Speaking of unification of church and state, a related point is that during the period of the Cultural Revolution, in order to stuff Mao Zedong thought deep into every person's soul. Thus, they attacked and destroyed all forms of culture unrelated to Mao Zedong thought, such as traditional Chinese culture and imported Western culture. When many people bring up the Cultural Revolution, in addition to mentioning political brutality, they also bring up cultural destruction. I would like to ask Mr. Wei to talk about the long-term impact this destruction has had on China.
W:
Looking at things from the display of the Cultural Revolution, it was precisely the unification of church and state that Chen Kuide mentioned. In this "unification of church and state," the church is not the church separated from the political system that we see in the West, but the church we saw in the unification of church and state in the Middle Ages. We can recall many actions in the Cultural Revolution. For instance, when the CCP had you listen to Mao's sayings and read his works every day, and receive instructions from the Party in the morning and report back to the Party in the evening, it is the same as prayer. Actually, this way of doing things, on the one hand, it is Mao's way of thinking, but on the other hand, it also has a strong connection with the "fully Westernization" train of thought that originated from the May 4th movement. The people of that time summarized the lessons of the failed Westernization Movement and Hundred Days' Reform, mainly coming to the conclusion that China's culture does not work, and so it cannot accept advanced Western things. Then what should be done? First, destroy China's culture. At the least, that was the ideology of the most left-leaning faction of the May 4th movement -- the faction that would later become the Communist Party faction. Mao Zedong mainly carried on this ideology. At the time, they did not succeed with it. Mao wanted to destroy Chinese culture in the way to make a blank paper so it would be ready for drawing. That was his basic thinking. In reality, many of the things done in the Cultural Revolution were the wishes from the May 4th movement. They developed to their extremes during the Cultural Revolution: that is, they wanted to destroy all of Chinese culture. Not only did they want to do this, they also wanted to destroy all Western culture that was detrimental to establishing Communism. So it turned into a cultural desert. This was how people directly felt about things.
(Chen Kuide: This was also why the movement's negative repercussions later on were so great. People cannot live without a spiritual life or without cultural support. So by the end, young people in particular began to search for spiritual resources in the desert. People began to launch all sorts of revolts and created huge repercussions.)
__ __ __
H:
The well-known Chinese author Yu Hua wrote a book called "Brothers," specifically writing about scenes from the Cultural Revolution. In an interview, he once stated that the Cultural Revolution was a spiritual fanaticism, an era of repressed instincts and violent fates. He also said that contemporary China is in an era of lost ethics and superficial indulgences. Do our two guests agree with the description of these two eras? If you agree, do you think that the two have inevitable relationships with one another?
W:
I feel that Deng Xiaoping had an important point of view, but he did not state it publicly. But while I was in jail, I took my time pondered his actions by observing him and thus his important views and actions. That is, he felt that using Communist ideals to dominate people's minds had failed and had in fact brought about a strong backlash. Then, what could weaken people's minds and keep them from resisting? Spiritual opium. So he used something from the other extreme, such as using the desire for money to weaken people's motivation to resist. I think that he might not really thought this way himself, for it is hard for a Communist to instantly become a money-grubber, but he think this way himself. But he realized that these things were necessary. What is even more necessary for people to pay attention to is that as to the "Opening up" of the 1980s, there were openings up in theory, culture, and thought, but according to what people said, that was "opening up the door halfway," not a complete opening up of the door. They used screen windows blocking things, to prevent flies fly in. Actually, this was a distorted form of opening up. This was one of their main trains of thought. Going from idealism to the other extreme, is like Hu Jintao said recently of "materialism".
__ __ __
H:
Mr. Wei, we know that there are extremely few commemoration activities inside China for the 40th anniversary of the Cultural Revolution. There are a few very small activities among the people, what overseas scholars see as superficial or debased displays, such as opening a restaurant reflecting on the Cultural Revolution era, and having people dressed as Red Guard members as waiters, and selling Mao Zedong buttons, etc. How do you look at these superficial or debased displays? Do you think these are things the CCP wants?
W:
Of course it is like this. When I first time free on parole in 1993, a German journalist told me, "Old Wei, let me take you to a really interesting restaurant." "What restaurant?" "Black Earth." I asked: "was not that the Great Northern Wilderness?" He said: "right on." It was a gathering place discovered by a sent-down youth who went to the Great Northern Wilderness. What they ate was all the stuff they ate at that time, and it was really expensive. So I went along, and asked the owner: it looks like judging by your age, you did not participated in the Cultural Revolution? He said: "right on, I often saw my older siblings meet together after going through it, so I came up with this idea. It was very successful." But I think this way of doing things - I think that people at that time went through suffering and hardships together, and had some idealism and common feelings, and I think that they will often gather together. It is hard to say whether anyone will utilize this force.
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(Program broadcasted alive on May 19, 2006. The Wei Jingsheng Foundation is responsible for the accuracy of this version of the English translation.)
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中文版
Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A220-W111
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A220-W111
Release Date: July 22, 2006
发布日：2006年7月22日
Topic: Wei Jingsheng Invited to Appear at Voice of America "Pro and Con" TV/Radio Program on the Occasion of the 40th Anniversary of Chinese Cultural Revolution
标题：魏京生受邀参加美国之音电视/电台联播的“焦点对话”节目，讨论中国文革四十周年
Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2006/report2006-07/WeiJS060722VOACulturalRevA220-W111.htm
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标题：魏京生受邀参加美国之音电视/电台联播的“焦点对话”节目，讨论中国文革四十周年
2006年5月19日，魏京生受邀参加由美国之音宁馨主持的 “焦点对话”节目，讨论中国文革四十周年。该节目的录像已下载到：
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2006/WeiJS060519CulturalRevVOA.rm
以下为魏京生先生谈话的节选。
__ __ __ __ __ __
主持人：
今年五月，是文化大革命爆发四十周年。尽管这十年浩劫，被认为是中国历史上最大的灾难之一，中国政府却回避这段历史，对纪念活动和媒体采取了严密的控制。为什么中国政府害怕公开讨论这段历史？中国人应当从文革中吸取什么教训？人们今天对文革的反思，还缺乏什么？今天我们请两位客人来进行讨论。一位是著名的人权活动家、"魏京生基金会"主席魏京生先生，一位是网上杂志《观察》总编陈奎德先生。
魏京生先生，请您先来说一下，您认为为什么中国政府如此回避文革这段历史？
魏京生：
文革有两个特别大的特点。一个特点就是，毛泽东一号召造反，许多老百姓趁机造了共产党官僚的反，这个许多共产党人记忆犹新。另一个特点就是，文革中把无产阶级专政用到了极致，把这些反抗活动都镇压下去了。在这两点上，邓小平及以后的中国共产党政府，都有忌讳，既怕人民造反，又怕人们说他们是无产阶级专政。所以他们就不让人们说这个问题。
__ __ __
主持人：
关于毛泽东"造反有理"的说法，当今有一些人，比如新左派，有一些正面的看法。其中之一就是说，文革造反，推翻了一些社会不公平现象，打倒了一些官僚。对这种观点应当怎么看？
魏京生：
当人民造反的时候，有一个最大的教训----大家都以为打着毛泽东的旗号去造反，就获得了合法性。结果你的造反，因为你打着毛泽东旗号，就相当于是在皇帝面前跪着造反。皇帝想要收拾你的时候，你一点办法也没有。共产党特别害怕老百姓总结了这个经验以后，下次就不打着你的旗号造反了。所以就不让老百姓总结这个经验教训。
__ __ __
主持人：
中国国内有一种说法，认为大鸣大放的做法，也有一定的民主精神在里面。魏京生先生，我们知道您对于中国缺乏民主有很深的反思。你怎么看这个问题？
魏京生：
我觉得在老百姓不能参与到舆论媒体，即没有言论自由的情况下，所谓大鸣大放大字报大辩论的"四大自由"，刚好是给老百姓保留了那么一点点自由。当然可以有胡说八道，就象美国的言论自由也有胡说八道一样。当然这个不是指责四大自由的一个原因。邓小平之所以要取消四大自由，主要是因为民主墙。民主墙的时候，也是老百姓利用四大自由，去批评政府，引起他们的恐惧。
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主持人：
中国民间对文革的反思，在外界看来是不够的。其中反而有些肯定文革的声音，你们怎么解释这个现象？
魏京生：
刚才奎德提到邓小平为什么要取缔四大自由。如果完全按照毛泽东的文革，好象这个四大自由没有那么可怕，因为毛泽东可以随时操控。但民主墙时期的四大自由，恰恰让邓小平看到了威力。因为邓小平就是利用民主墙的势头，把华国峰的凡是派打下去。也就是说，民间的力量，已经可以干预到中央的政治斗争了，而且是相当有力量。所以，他上台以后做的第一件事，就是先把民主墙给消灭了。这是他们总结了经验教训以后，对老百姓趁机造反，已经感到非常恐怖了。
__ __ __
主持人：
所以您认为中国回避文革的最大原因，就是出于对民间力量的惧怕吗？
魏京生：
这只是其中的一半。另外一半就是，邓小平感到，他继续执政，并不需要人民的民主，虽然他打着民主的旗号。他非常清醒地看到，他还是要用无产阶级专政的手段，来对付老百姓。所以他不愿意人们去批评无产阶级专政。因为文革的残酷，绝大多数都是因为无产阶级专政造成的，而不是因为人们之间互相斗争造成的。两派组织之间的打斗，实际上正是毛泽东玩弄无产阶级专政的一种手段。
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主持人：
刚才说到文革是中国历史上最黑暗的一个阶段。但是有些中国知识分子，就象著名诗人北岛曾经说过一段话，中国人都善于打鬼，其实鬼就在我们心里，我们每个人都有自己的鬼。他的意思是，民间的反思，往往是把文革的原因和规模归咎于毛泽东或当时的中共政权。但是文革毕竟是全民的运动。您认为中国人本身，平民百姓，有没有作出过反思呢？我想请魏京生先生先说一下，因为我知道，您在文革期间，曾经有当红卫兵的经历。
魏京生：
对，对，而且是最早的一批开始造反的红卫兵。现在很多人在反思，从各自的角度。当然北岛的话说的有些刻薄，我想他主要是指现在。因为很多人自己参加过文革。人都有一种倾向，要给自己过去的行为找到一个合理性，来使自己心里比较平安。这至少是中国人的一个特点吧。
现在人们制造出各种理由，说明文革是好的，合理的。因为文革是很复杂的一个东西，某些人的行为和动机，你不能否认他当时并没有恶的动机，或者说他们的行为可能有正面的作用。都是有可能的。但是不能以此理由来谈论整个的文革。因为整个的文革是一场大灾难。这个大家都承认的。不光是一些共产党干部被打倒了，他们认为是灾难。很多老百姓都受害了。今天整百分之五，明天整百分之五，最后大家看看，那剩下恐怕也就只有百分之五没被整的了。所以说，文革对老百姓来说都是一场灾难。为什么会造成这样一场灾难呢？这才是今天我们最需要总结的经验教训，而不是给自己的行为开脱。
(陈奎德：这点也反映了中国人的忏悔意识比较欠缺。比较缺乏宗教感，比较缺乏罪恶感。)
奎德说的这个有道理。很多中国人缺乏忏悔精神。但是，为什么缺乏忏悔精神呢？这跟中国社会缺乏宽容的精神有关。假如有人现在忏悔了，说我做得不对，马上别人记住他坏的一面。这让人不敢忏悔。大家不会原谅他。我感到，我碰到的许多朋友，也是有很强烈的这种情绪。我觉得这也是许多人怕进行忏悔的一个原因。
(主持人：中国历史上宗教意识的缺乏，忏悔意识的缺乏，跟其他民族比起来，是比较明显的。比如说德国对于二战的忏悔，它是非常强烈的)
这个与波兰人民、犹太人民的宽容，也是有直接关系的。如果人们永远不愿意去宽容它，就象中国对日本永远不能宽容，那么日本反而不愿意去忏悔了。这是一个相互的关系。
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主持人：
刚才两位都讲到，文化大革命的特点之一就是，中共党内斗争的极端残酷性，还有党内的专制推到了极致。中共政权之所以回避文革，也许因为很多那个时候的东西，现在还是一脉相承。您觉得今天中共专制的这种特点，党内斗争的这种特点，还有多强？
魏京生：
中共党内斗争的残酷，其实也是从苏联延续过来的。或者说，这是一个规律，这种独裁专制的党，既是独裁专制的政治，同时又带有一定的宗教性，很狂热，不讲理。所以它比古代的专制政权，表现得更加残忍。在这么残忍的情况下，就想刚才讲的互动关系一样，人们就变得特别不能承认错误。不但不能承认错误，而且报复心也特别强。我听说过一些情况，现在党内也是这样，整人也跟文革时期差不多。不管用什么手段，我一定要把你整掉，不然的话，你可能把我整掉，而且可能是死无葬身之地。所以这种情况造成了政治的残酷性。
(陈奎德：文革把中共的政教合一特点发挥到极致。毛泽东既要做天下的帝王，又要做人民的导师，君师合一。对人民实行一种洗脑式的、灌输式的意识形态的统治，是文革的很厉害的一点。这点中共的统治是一直不敢放弃的。)
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主持人：
说到政教合一，相关的一点就是，文革期间，为了把毛泽东思想灌输到每个人的灵魂深处，于是对所有与毛泽东思想无关的文化，如传统文化、西方外来文化，都采取摧残和打击的态度。很多人提到文革，除了政治的残酷以外，也提到对于文化的摧残。我想请魏京生先生说一下这种摧残对于中国的长远的影响。
魏京生：
从文革时的表现看，它就是奎德说的政教合一。所谓政教合一，这个"教"，不是指的西方那种与政治分离的教，而是中世纪那种政教合一的教。咱们可以回忆起来的文革的许多行为，就跟宗教的仪式差不多。天天听、天天读、早请示、晚汇报，跟祈祷的形式是一样的。其实这种做法，一方面是毛泽东的一种想法，一方面可能跟从五四时期起源的很多全盘西化的思想，有很大关系。当时人们总结洋务运动、戊戌变法失败的教训，主要是中国的文化不行，所以不能接受西方的先进的东西。那么要做什么呢？先要把中国的文化摧毁。这至少是五四运动中最左的那一派----就是后来变成共产党的这一派----的意识形态。毛泽东主要是继承这个意识形态，当时没有做成的，摧毁中国文化，然后在一张白纸上好画画。这是他的基本想法。实际上，文革的许多做法，也是五四时期的一种期望。它在文革的时候发展到极致，就是要摧毁所有的中国文化。不但是这样，还要摧毁那些不利于建设共产主义的所有的西方文化。所以整个就变成了文化沙漠了。这也是大家的直接的感觉。
(陈奎德：这也是后来的反弹为什么那么大的原因。人是不能没有精神生活，不能没有文化来支持的。所以到了后期，特别是年轻人，开始在文化沙漠下寻找各种精神资源。民间开始萌动各种反抗，造成了巨大的反弹。)
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主持人：
中国著名作家余华写了本书叫《兄弟》，专门反映文革时代的情景。他曾经在一个采访中表示，文革是一个精神狂热、本能压抑和命运惨烈的时代，但是他又讲了，当今的中国，是一个伦理丧失、浮燥纵欲的时代。这两种时代特征，不知二位同意不同意？如果同意的话，你觉得这两者有没有必然的联系？
魏京生：
我觉得邓小平有一个很重要的想法，他没有公开表达。但是对他的行为，我在监狱里天天这么慢慢琢磨，观察出他有这么一个重要的行为看法。就是说，他觉得用共产主义理想去统治人们的头脑，失败了，反而引起很大的反弹。那么，什么东西最容易把人们的思想软化下去，不让他们反抗呢？那就是精神鸦片。所以他用另外一个极端的东西，比如说向钱看这类物质欲望，来消灭人们反抗的动力。我想他可能有这种思想。一个共产主义者，很难一下子变成一个比如说向钱看的人，事实上他自己可能也不这样看。但是他认为需要这些东西。特别需要大家注意的就是，八十年代所谓的"开放"，在理论、文化、思想上有开放，但是按照他们的说法，这叫"开半扇门"，而不是完全打开。要有纱窗挡着，不要让苍蝇飞进来。其实呢，一张白纸已经失败了，就想放进一部分来，迷惑人们的思想，扭曲性地开放。这是他们一个主要的思路。
从理想主义的反弹，一下子走到另一头，就是胡锦涛最近说的"物质主义"去了。
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主持人：
魏先生，我们知道文革四十周年，中国的纪念活动非常少，民间有一些比较小打小闹的纪念活动，一般海外学者都认为比较流于肤浅化和庸俗化，比如说开点反映文革时代特点的餐馆，让红卫兵式戴着袖章的人去当服务员，还有搞点毛泽东像章的买卖，等等。您怎么看待这种肤浅化和庸俗化，是不是中共反而愿意去这样肤浅化和庸俗化？
魏京生：
当然是这样了。1993年我第一次假释回去的时候，一个德国记者对我说，"老魏呀，我带你去一个很有意思的餐馆。""什么餐馆？""黑土地。"我一听，"这不是北大荒的吗？"他说，没错。是一个北大荒的老知青找到的一个大家聚会的地点。吃的都是当时的大锅饭什么的，价钱还特别的贵。我去了，就问那个老板：咦，我看您的年龄，好象没参加过文革嘛？他说，没错，我是看我哥哥姐姐他们，经历过文革的，老经常在一起聚会，我就打了这个主意。很成功。但是他这个做法，我想一个是当年一起受过苦，受过难，有过理想主义，一起奋斗的这些人，有一些共同的感情，他们会经常在一起聚会。是不是会有人利用这些力量，很难估计。
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（魏京生基金会首发。请注明出处：www.WeiJingSheng.org）
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