Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A592-W360
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A592-W360
Release
Date: December 7, 2010
发布日：2010年12月7日
Topic:
Liu Xiaobo, Chinese Human Rights and Political Future -- Wei Jingsheng's
Interview with Korean New Media
标题：刘晓波、中国人权现况及政治前景 -- 魏京生给南韩媒体的答复
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Liu
Xiaobo, Chinese Human Rights and Political Future
--
Wei Jingsheng's Interview with Korean New Media
On
December 3, 2010, Wei Jingsheng's interview with Korea's news media was
published by www.kukinews.com. The
following is the transcript of Mr. Wei's answers to reporter's questions.
1)
You have been criticizing Mr. Liu Xiaobo, a human rights activist who was
recently awarded the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize, because he is too understanding of
the Chinese Communist Party. In
your point of view, he seems to be a moderate.
-Could
you discuss about the meaning of his win? Why now and why Mr. Liu Xiaobo?
-What
impact would it make on a political reform in China, Chinese intellectuals, and
the civil society in China in the long run as well as in the short run?
Wei
Jingsheng: There are a lot of definitions of a "moderate". Now, the definition we the Chinese
people accept is a person who speaks with a bottom line accepted by the Chinese
Communists. Such a person not only
advocates cooperation with the Chinese Communist government, but also is
against the Chinese people who use force against the Communist tyranny. This position does not have much
difference from the purpose of the "Political Consultative
Conference" sponsored by the Chinese Communist Party. Or, to put it more accurately: these
people position themselves between the opposition (or dissidents) and the Communist
Party. Only for the purpose of
taking sponsorship from foreigners would they take the risk of calling
themselves "dissidents".
Recently, one of them, Wan Yanhai, who was never a part of the Chinese
democratic movement yet quite famous stated accurately: "Liu Xiaobo is the
best cooperator with the Chinese Communist Party."
This
kind of person does get rewarded by the international society. Just as the Nobel Committee itself has
claimed: it gives people a new direction and new style. In the short run, they will reduce both
the Chinese people's opposition and international opposition to the Chinese
Communist Party. The result will
be that China loses or delays its opportunity for peaceful evolution. However, all this cooperation will soon
lose its deception, with no long-term effects.
__ __ __
2)
Could you describe the human rights record and freedom of speech and press in
China? Seemingly, things are
getting better in China even though not as fast as you hope. At least, they insist so. How much do you think political freedom
such as free speech and human rights in China has improved over the last ten
years?
Wei
Jingsheng: On the surface, Westerners are talking about the Chinese human
rights record and freedom of expression and freedom of the press getting
better. That is because the
international media is also gradually sealed by the Chinese Communist Party's
money campaign. In reality, the
suppression by the Chinese Communist government is getting more severe than
before. The situation is
worsening, instead of improving.
Thirty years ago when I was sent to prison, I did not receive the kind
of cruel torture given to Gao Zhisheng and Guo Feixiong, despite Deng Xiaoping
asking to give me the worst treatment. These cases prove that the Chinese human rights condition is
going backwards, not forwards. The
fact that Liu Xiaobo received favored treatment only proves that he is not the
enemy of the Communist Party; it does not prove that the treatment of political
prisoners are improved.
__ __ __
3)
Recently, farmers, workers and migrant workers have started to claim their
rights. Grassroots people who have
been neglected and repressed for a long time suddenly realized they could make
their voice heard in the street.
-What
are their conditions like economically and politically?
-Some
hopeful western scholars expect them to change the Chinese political
system. What do you think of their
role in the political reform or democratization in China? Do you think they can play a leading
part in the Chinese social reform?
Wei
Jingsheng: It is not because "grassroots people who have been neglected
and repressed for a long time suddenly realize they could make their voice
heard in the street." It is
because people gradually realized the stubbornness of the Chinese Communist
Party and thus gave up their illusion of peaceful evolution. So, Liu Xiaobo is needed to guide
people to return to their waiting stage of "peaceful, rational,
non-violence." Before Liu
Xiaobo got the prize, people like him had very little influence. Even his neighbors mistakenly thought
it was the well-known movie star Ms. Liu Xiaoqing who won the award. The Nobel Peace Committee wishes his
award will help to increase his influence. This hope can be achieved partially.
After
thirty years of the spreading of democratic ideas, the Chinese people not only
ready to fight for their economic rights and interests, but also clearly desire
for a change of the political system.
So, even within the Chinese Communist Party a discussion of political
reform has started. The shared
wish of the Chinese people is the best guidance for China's future. Even if there is an attempt to change
that direction by some Western countries, it will not have any effect.
__ __ __
4)
There have been some arguments for a political reform inside the Chinese Communist
Party. Lately, Wen Jiabao, the
Chinese Premier, repeatedly emphasized political reform. The People's Daily openly refuted him. Do you believe there are meaningful
internal discords and different views within the Chinese Communist Party? What do you think of Mr. Wen Jiabao's
proposal?
Wei
Jingsheng: Some within the ruling class in China who have already earned a lot
of money are hoping for a peaceful evolution instead of the more likely violent
revolution. This is because the
violent revolution could cause them to lose everything. Premier Wen Jiabao could be their
representative. They are forming a
small political faction. But the
vast majority of people within the interest groups in China will not accept
these people's views. The lower and
middle officials and their relatives do not believe there will be a good result
from peaceful evolution. They
believe in more repression.
Without enough international and domestic pressure, good intentions
alone cannot make the varieties of tyrants, large and small, give up the
power. South Korea's
"Sunshine Policy" is a good proof: Kim Jong Il did not make the slightest improvement.
__ __ __
5)
China has successfully integrated wealth and power. It has embraced the private sector and succeeded in winning
intellectuals and capitalists over.
As a result, the Chinese elite no longer wants to undertake their duty
as critics. Why do you think they
are so easily incorporated into the Chinese political system? What do you think is their role to
improve the Chinese political and social situation?
Wei
Jingsheng: The wealth and power is not being integrated, but it was all in one
to start with. Wealth comes from
power. This result is the
characteristic of the bureaucratic capitalism. After the June 4 Tiananmen Massacre in 1989, the Chinese
Communist Party implemented a new policy of combining the three kinds of
"political, economic, and cultural" elites. This policy was used two thousand years ago when the Han Wu
Emperor bought out all the intellectuals.
Because of the traditional Chinese culture of "using excellent
learning to make an official," also because of the very significant
differences between these interests in comparison to prison and surrender, most
of the so-called intellectuals choose to be the dependents of the Communist
government. So the average folks
call these so-called intellectuals "knowing elements." The role of dependency is not so
clear. Some may be the vampire
victims who came around to suck the blood of the next victims. Some may do nothing. However, there are a few intellectuals
who inherited the traditional Chinese culture of different elements: having
courage and daring to sacrifice themselves. They are willing to take risks for ideology and social
responsibility, to lead the people against tyranny. These people are the true stars, producers and directors of
China's future politics.
__ __ __
6)
What does democratizing China (or Chinese democracy) mean to you ? Does it mean to employ a western-style
political system such as multi-party democracy, checks and balances? Or do you believe there can be a different
way, a Chinese way to the democratic society?
-What
are the prerequisite conditions for Chinese democracy?
-What
is the possibility for China and the Chinese people to gain freedom?
-Which
way do you think China should or can take to reach the goal?
Wei
Jingsheng: China's democratic future will be the same as in Western countries:
a specific system may vary, but the basic principles of democracy cannot be
different. Otherwise, it would be
the false democracy of the Communist Party. The most important prerequisites for democracy are free
speech, free association, and a multi-party system. After more than a century of strife and more than three
decades of re-education of democratic ideas, the Chinese people know their goal
very clearly. It will only be an
issue of time and opportunity for the Chinese people gain their freedom. Peaceful evolution is what most people
hope for. However, if those in
authority, along with the intellectual class bought out by the Chinese
authority, and the international community, block that hope, then violent
revolution becomes inevitable in China.
__ __ __
7)
Some Chinese people view Liu Xiaobo's win as a political action to attack
China. Nationalism is
intentionally promoted and encouraged by the government and the media. In some ways, it is true though. Global powers are using Chinese
dissidents as a weapon for negotiation.
What kind of impact do you think nationalism has on Chinese democracy?
Wei
Jingsheng: "Global powers are using Chinese dissidents as a weapon for
negotiation." This action is
usually for their own interests.
The Chinese Communist government has learned from the Deng Xiaoping era
about sharing the interests of exploiting the Chinese people with the big
businesses in the West. So, unlike
what had happened in South Korea, for our Chinese people the possibility of
getting strong support from the international community is getting smaller and
smaller.
Nationalism
is a double-edged sword. It might
strengthen authoritarian rule, it may undermine authoritarian rule.
__ __ __
8)
What are the Wei Jingsheng Foundation's recent activities and future
plans? What is the situation of
Chinese political activists outside China?
Wei
Jingsheng: Our foundation's main activities will be as always: to promote the
international community's concern for Human Rights in China, and to give ideological
guidance to the opposition movement inside China. The Chinese opposition movement overseas is very similar to
what the South Koreans had before, but has more difficulty. Back then, the dictators of South Korea
did not have much experience in undercover work; its skills were far below that
of the Chinese Communist Party, even below that of Kim Jong Il.
__ __ __
9)
China is a very important partner to South Korea in the region economically and
politically. Especially we South
Koreans have to deal with North Korea.
China is the most important partner and player in the game.
-What
do you think Chinese democracy means to South Korea? What influence would it have on Northeast Asia?
-Of
late China is taking more aggressive and tough diplomatic approaches. What is your opinion about its
unyielding tactics? What do you
think they are aiming for by that?
Wei
Jingsheng: China is not "the most important partner and player in the
game". It is not a game
either. Games have rules. The policy of Beijing and Pyongyang is
to break the rules, to murder and to invade. Like the goal of the Kim Jong Il regime, the ultimate goal
for the Chinese Communists in Beijing is to eliminate all non-Communist
governments in East Asia. Not only
because both Pyongyang and Beijing are Communist, but more because the
existence of democracy is the biggest threat to these tyrannies. To one side, the Communist Party is
using a two faced policy which will determine life and death; to the other
side, people believe that it is a game with every party following rules. This is the root cause why China and
North Korea keep winning in this so-called "games".
Democratization
of China will completely change this setup. Only in dealing with a reasonable democratic country it is
possible to have peaceful competition under the rules. To talk about rules with tyrants is
impossible and unrealistic, as described by the Chinese proverb: "climbing
the tree to get fish", or "negotiating with the tiger to get its
skin".
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中文版
Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A592-W360
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A592-W360
Release
Date: December 7, 2010
发布日：2010年12月7日
Topic:
Liu Xiaobo, Chinese Human Rights and Political Future -- Wei Jingsheng's
Interview with Korean New Media
标题：刘晓波、中国人权现况及政治前景 -- 魏京生给南韩媒体的答复
Original
Language Version: Korean (English version at the beginning, Chinese at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2010/report2010-12/WeiJSinterview101207SKoreaA592-W360.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------
刘晓波、中国人权现况及政治前景
-- 魏京生给南韩媒体的答复
2010年12月3日，南韩媒体发表了就刘晓波、中国人权现况及政治前景等问题对魏京生所做的专访。以下为采访的文字稿。（相关网站：www.kukinews.com）
1） 您批评最近被授予2010年诺贝尔和平奖的人权活动家刘晓波先生，因为他太理解中共。从你的角度来看，他是温和派。
-- 您能否谈谈对他得奖的意义？为什么是刘晓波先生？为什么现在他得？
-- 他得奖会对中国的政改、中国知识分子、及民间社会在长期与短期内会有什么影响？
魏京生：什么是温和派有很多定义。现在中国人大家都接受的定义是：按照共产党所能够接受的底线说话；不仅主张和官方合作，而且反对人民用暴力反抗暴政。这和中共的附庸“政治协商会议”的宗旨没多大区别。准确地说：这些人是处在反对派运动（或者叫异议人士）和中共之间的状态。只是为了拿外国人的经费方便，他们才冒险把自己叫做异议人士。最近他们之中一个从来不和民运打交道的著名人士万延海说得很准确：刘晓波是中共最好的合作者。
这样的人受到国际社会如此的奖励。正如诺贝尔评奖委员会自己声称的那样：将会引导人们新的方向、方式。短期内，这会减弱中国国内民众反抗对中共造成的的压力，也会减弱国际社会对中共的压力，从而丧失或者延后和平演变的机会。但这些很快会失去欺骗性，不会有什么长期的影响。
__ __ __
2）你能描述中国的人权纪录、言论自由和新闻自由吗？表面上看，中国的事情在变得越来越好，即使是不想你希望的那样快。至少是，他们坚持这样说。在过去的十年，你认为中国的言论自由和人权记录改善了多少？
魏京生：所谓表面上看中国的人权纪录、言论自由和新闻自由变得越来越好，是因为国际媒体也正在中共的金钱攻势面前逐渐地封口。实际上，最近几年中共的镇压比过去更严重了。情况是在恶化而没有什么改善。三十年前我进监狱的时候，虽然邓小平给我规定了最差的待遇，但还没有遭到像高智晟、郭飞熊那样严重的酷刑。这些恰好证明了中国人权状况的倒退，而不是什么进步。刘晓波受到优待只说明他不是共产党的敌人，并不能证明中国政治犯的待遇有所改进。
__ __ __
3） 最近，农民、工人和农民工开始要求他们的权利。被忽视和压抑了很久的基层的人们突然意识到他们可以使他们的声音在街上听到。
-- 他们有什么样经济上和政治上的条件？
-- 一些乐观的西方学者期望他们改变中国的政治制度。你怎么看他们在中国的政治改革或民主化中的角色？你认为他们能在中国社会改革中起一个领导角色？
魏京生：并不是“被忽视和压抑了很久的基层的人们突然意识到他们可以使他们的声音在街上听到”。而是人们逐渐认识到了共产党的顽固性，放弃了等待和平演变的幻想。所以现在需要刘晓波这样的角色来引导人们回到“和平理性非暴力”
的等待状态。在刘晓波获奖之前，刘晓波这类人的影响力非常小。甚至他的邻居都误以为是电影明星刘晓庆获奖。诺贝尔评奖委员会希望他获奖能够增加影响力。这个希望能够部分实现。
经过三十多年的民主思想普及，中国人不仅仅在争取他们的经济权利和利益，而且明确地希望改变政治体制。所以中共内部也不得不开始议论政治体制改革。中国人们普遍的愿望才是对中国的未来最好的引导。既使有西方国家企图改变这个方向，也不会有什么效果的。
__ __ __
4）在中共内部，有些关于政治改革的争论。最近，中国总理温家宝一再强调政治改革。但人民日报公开驳斥他。你是否相信中共内有着有意义的内部不和和不同意见？你如何看待他（温家宝总理）的提议？
魏京生：中国统治阶级内部一些已经赚到了钱的人，希望用和平演变代替很可能发生的暴力革命。这是因为暴力革命可能使他们失去一切。温家宝总理很可能是他们的代表。他们正在形成一个弱小的政治派别。但是中国现在的利益集团内部的绝大部分人，不会接受他们的看法。中下层官吏和他们的亲属不相信和平演变会有好的结果。他们更相信镇压。没有足够的国际、国内压力，仅仅靠良好的愿望不可能让大大小小的暴君们放弃手中的权力。你们韩国的“阳光政策”就是很好的证明：金正日没有丝毫的改变。
__ __ __
5）中国已成功整合了财富和权力。它已经接受了私营部门并成功地赢得了知识分子和资本家。因此，中国的精英不再想负批评的责任。你认为他们为什么这么容易被纳入中国的政治体制？你觉得他们在改善中国的政治和社会情况的角色是什么？
魏京生：财富和权力不是被整合了，而是从开始就是共同体。财富来源于权力。这是官僚资产阶级的特点。天安门事件之后，中共实行了新的政策“政治、经济、文化”三种精英相结合。这就是二千多年前汉武帝实行的收买天下知识分子的政策。由于中国传统文化中的“学而优则仕”的思想，也由于在监狱和投降之间的比较利益非常明显的差别，大多数所谓的知识分子选择了作政府的附庸。所以老百姓管他们叫做“知道分子”。附庸的角色是什么就不太清楚了，可能是助纣为虐，也可能无所作为。但还是有少数知识分子继承了中国传统文化的另一些内容：见义勇为，杀身成仁。为了理想和社会责任而承担风险，领导人民反抗暴政。他们才是中国未来政治的明星和编、导演。
__ __ __
6）中国民主化（或中国民主）对你意味着什么？是否意味着多党民主、制衡性的西式政治体制吗？还是可以有不同的方式，一种中国式的民主社会？
-- 什么是中国民主的前提条件？
-- 中国和中国人民有可能获得自由吗？
-- 你认为中国应该或可以采取哪种方式达到目标？
魏京生：和西方国家一样：具体的制度可能有所不同，基本的民主原则不可能有什么不同。否则就是和共产党一样的假民主了。民主的最重要的前提条件就是言论、结社的自由；就是多党制。中国人经过一百多年的奋斗和三十多年的民主思想的再教育，目标已经非常清楚。获得自由只不过是时间和机会的问题了。和平演变是大多数人的希望。如果当权者和被他们收买的知识阶层和国际社会堵塞了这种希望，暴力革命就是不可避免的。
__ __ __
7）有些中国人民认为刘晓波得奖是攻击中国的一种政治行动。民族主义在被中国政府和媒体故意地推动着。在某些方面，这的确是事实。世界上的权力将中国的持不同政见者作为一种谈判武器。你认为民族主义对中国民主是什么样的影响？
魏京生：“世界上的权力将中国的持不同政见者作为一种谈判武器”。这一般都是为了他们自己的利益。中共从邓小平时代就学会了让西方的大企业分享剥削中国人民的利益。所以对中国人民来说，像韩国人民那样得到国际社会的大力支持的可能性是越来越小了。
民族主义是一个双面刃的剑。它既可能加强专制统治，也可能削弱专制统治。
__ __ __
8）魏京生基金会最近有什么样的活动和未来计划？中国以外的中国政治活动家的现况？
魏京生：我们的基金会活动将一如既往：以推动国际社会对中国人权事务的关注，和给与国内反抗运动思想上的指导为主要任务。中国海外反对运动的情况和你们韩国当年的情况很相似，但是更困难一些。你们韩国的独裁者没有特务工作的经验，或者说水平远在中国共产党之下，甚至不如金正日。
__ __ __
9）中国是韩国在该地区的经济和政治上的一个非常重要的合作伙伴。尤其是我们，必须与北韩打交道的南韩人。中国是这个球赛里最重要的合作伙伴和球员。
-- 你认为中国的民主对韩国意味着什么？对东北亚将是什么样的影响？
-- 近来中国正在采取更强硬和有进攻性的外交手段。你对它们不示弱的战术是什么看法？你觉得它们这么做的目的是什么？
魏京生：中国不是这个球赛里最重要的合作伙伴和球员。这也不是一场球赛。因为北京和平壤的政策就是破坏规则，谋财害命。和金正日政权的目标一样，北京的最终目标是消灭东亚地区的所有非共产党政权。不仅仅因为他们是共产党，更因为民主国家的存在就是对他们专制暴政的最大威胁。一方面共产党使用的是你死我活的两面派政策，另一方面却有人认为是有规则的球赛。这就是中国和北韩总是赢球的根本原因。
中国的民主化将彻底改变这种格局。和讲道理的民主国家才有可能在规则之下进行和平的竞赛。和暴君们讲规则，用中国成语来形容叫做：缘木求鱼或者与虎谋皮。
（魏京生基金会首发，请注明出处。www.weijingsheng.org）
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