Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition News and Article Release Issue Number: A652-O180

中国民主运动海外联席会议新闻与文章发布号：A652-O180

Release Date: September 3, 2011

发布日：2011年9月3日

Topic: It Is a Warning to the Chinese Communist Party When the Libyan People End Gaddafi's Authoritarian Regime with Force -- Wei Jingsheng's discussions and answers with Voice of America's viewers, listeners and Internet users in China about the Libyan Revolution and the Chinese Democracy Movement

标题：利比亚人民以武力结束卡扎菲的专制政权是对中共的一个警告 -- 魏京生参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目，与观众、听众及因特网用户们讨论利比亚革命与中国民主

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

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It Is a Warning to the Chinese Communist Party When the Libyan People End Gaddafi's Authoritarian Regime with Force

-- Wei Jingsheng's discussions and answers with Voice of America's viewers, listeners and Internet users in China about the Libyan Revolution and the Chinese Democracy Movement

On August 21, 2011, the Libyan rebels took over the Libyan capital of Tripoli without much resistance. The Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi is missing. Responding to the news, the Chinese Government issued a statement that it will respect the Libyan people's choice. On the other hand, the Chinese government worries that the revolutionary wave of the Middle East "Jasmine Revolution" will spill over into China. The word "Jasmine" has already become taboo in China. The suppression of the dissident movement has also increased in China since the Arab Spring. Nevertheless, in the past few months, the conflicts within Chinese society are growing. So what will be the effect of the Libyan revolution on the Chinese democracy movement?

Voice of America's "Issues and Opinions" Call-in program invited Mr. Wei Jingsheng, the Chairman of the Overseas Chinese Democracy Movement, to their studio to talk with hostess Peggy Chang, on this historic event to express his views, as well as to communicate with the Chinese audience, TV and Internet viewers.

The following are Mr. Wei's main points that he made at the start of the program:

1. The massacre in 1989 in Beijing's TianAnMen Square by the Chinese Communist Party was an encouragement to the dictators of the world. It leads them to believe that they can suppress the will of the people through the use of violence. Gaddafi learnt it from Deng Xiaoping -- openly using military to suppress the people.

2. The Chinese Communist regime's statement that they, "respect the Libyan people's choice", in fact, is referring to the Libyan dictatorship and not the will of the people. Because the Chinese Communist regime thinks that the government represents the Libyan people. The Chinese Communist regime also mistakenly thinks that it represents the Chinese people.

3. The North Africa democracy movement from Tunisia to Libya, greatly encourages the Chinese people. The fact that the Libyan people used force to get rid of Gaddafi illustrates that people can overthrow an authoritarian regime using force, even though that regime has modern and superior weapons. These events serve as a warning to the Chinese Communist regime, that the use of military power to suppress the will of the people will not always work.

4. The Chinese government detained artist Ai Weiwei through its traditional brutal and unlawful practices. But it did not expect so much international pressure, so it had to let him go out of fear of foreign criticism. However, recently there is a situation that should arouse our attention; dissidents who are detained and then released dared not speak out. Apparently, some are saying that the detainees were tortured and threatened upon their release.

5. Recently, the Chinese regime has been cracking down even more severely on dissidents. One reason is that the Arab Spring serves as a warning to the Communist Party, that even with the help of the military it will be difficult to suppress the people's will. The other reason is that the government feels free to do so due to lack of pressure from the international community.

During the call-in time, Mr. Zhou of Yunnan Province said: The Communist regime claims that it "respects the Libyan people's choice," yet it does not respect the Chinese people's own choice. Nowadays, people curse the Communist Party every day. He believes that China will change soon.

In response to someone in the audience's comment about peaceful evolution, Mr. Wei said: It is understandable that we all want peaceful evolution. However, whether the process of democratization will be violent or not, is not determined by the people. This year's changes in several Arab countries, is the proof. For example, Egypt's Hosni Mubarak yielded and stepped down, so the transition process was relatively smooth. In comparison, Gaddafi did not budge, so the shift in power in Libya was not a smooth transition. Gaddafi used the army, so the people had no choice but to revolt. The army is also made up of the people. So in the end, they defeated the dictator using force. Wei Jingsheng went further on this topic: "The Chinese army is also comprised of average people. Most of them, both officers and ordinary soldiers, have a good conscience. As a matter of fact, even back in 1989 during the military crackdown of the democracy movement in China, many soldiers did not want to oppress the people. Twenty years later members of the military are better informed and have better access to information. If China has large-scale demonstrations again, and involves the will of the Chinese people, the majority of the Chinese military might, as in the case of the Egyptians, make the right choice and support the people.

Mr. Lin of Jiangxi Province said: "The tide of history is irresistible. But nowadays, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) always says that 'stability overrides everything'." Another netizen pointed out: "The Chinese Communist Party has always stressed that stability overrides everything. Indeed, the development of a country needs stability. However, when the CCP tries to address social injustice so unrealistically, by suppressing the interests of the people and their reasonable demands in order to maintain tranquility, the result is not stability, but rather further exacerbation of social conflict." In response, Wei Jingsheng said that, in order to protect the stability of their rule, the CCP always shouted loudly for stability, which ironically shows in itself that it is unstable. The democratic system represents true stability, although as the details are resolved, there will inevitably be short-term instability. Where there is injustice to the people, of course there can be no stability. Some people have received the economic benefits of the current system. We understand their desire for stability and maintaining the status quo. However, most Chinese people still live a life of poverty.

In response to the comment by Mr. Guo of Henan Province that " Ours is not the concern of scarcity but unequal distribution (to the Chinese people)", Mr. Wei said: "I just read a set of data, among which is that 55% of Chinese people's income is less than $2 a day, which is the poverty line set by the United Nations. Twenty years have already passed after the June 4 Massacre in Beijing, and their situation has not improved. They do not have human rights, and do not even have enough food and clothing. They are both scarce and unequally distributed. When people's lives are so untenable, how can there be stability? "

Mr. Wang of Hubei Province said: The CCP is very fragile. Its officials are corrupt and have plenty of money, their wealth is transferred abroad. Mr. Gao of Liaoning Province provided details of an actual situation that occurred in his area to point out that the CCP is very nervous about the Jasmine Revolution. Mr. Chen of Guangdong Province said that "Communist politics is too corrupt. We must work together to obtain human rights and democracy. We also want the support from the democratic countries in Europe and America."

Mr. Wei responded to them by stating that help from outside is indeed important. In the past, the support from the international community affects every major change that takes place in a country, especially now that democracy is a world trend. This time around Libyans have also received as much help as possible from Europe and America (in the form of NATO). Be that as it may, when all the people are opposed to dictatorship, even without such help, although it may last for a certain period of time, the dictatorship will not be able to last forever. Without international help, the Libyan people may have paid a higher price in sacrifice, but in the end they would still be able to end the dictator's rule -- and so will the Chinese people.

Mr. Wei also responded to a netizen's comment that "the free world such as the United States should increase a public campaign of freedom and democracy in China, or otherwise the Chinese government will turn around and campaign against the free world." Wei said: "The United States and other countries should raise their voices to support democracy and freedom, to promote democracy and deliver more information about democracy to the Chinese people. This time, during the Arab Spring from Egypt to Libya, the media played a big role."

Finally, Wei agreed to a netizen's comment of "without the June 4 Massacre (in Beijing's TianAnMen Square in 1989), China's over all development would have been faster and more solid."

The related program on the website of Voice of America is:

http://www.voanews.com/chinese/news/20110901-Issues-and-Opinions-Libyas-Opposition-Success-and-Chinas-Social-Conflict-and-Democratic-Movement-128887478.html

The first half of related video by the Voice of America is available at:

http://www.youtube.com/user/VOAchina # p/c/B38968FD1BAB5C23/0/CtsmnNM-LJg or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZC0WlgXw8c by the Wei Jingsheng Foundation;

The second half of related video by the Voice of America is available at:

http://www.youtube.com/user/VOAchina # p/c/B38968FD1BAB5C23/1/m9qjPNQuCJ8 or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThVADoXvPDI by the Wei Jingsheng Foundation.

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中文版

Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition News and Article Release Issue Number: A652-O180

中国民主运动海外联席会议新闻与文章发布号：A652-O180

Release Date: September 3, 2011

发布日：2011年9月3日

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2011/report2011-09/WeiJSonLibya110903VOAprogramA652-O180.htm

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利比亚人民以武力结束卡扎菲的专制政权是对中共的一个警告

-- 魏京生参加美国之音“时事大家谈”叩应节目，与观众、听众及因特网用户们讨论利比亚革命与中国民主

8月21号，利比亚反政府武装在几乎没有遭到什么抵抗的情况下攻入利比亚首都的黎波里，利比亚独裁者卡扎菲下落不明。针对这个消息，中国政府表示尊重利比亚人民的选择。但另一方面，中国政府担心中东茉莉花革命风潮流向中国，"茉莉花"三个字成了禁忌，对异议人士的打压也加剧。虽然如此，过去几个月，中国社会矛盾冲突却有升高的趋势。那么利比亚革命对中国民主运动是否会带来什么影响呢?

美国之音“时事大家谈”节目邀请了中国民主运动海外联席会议主席魏京生先生到他们的演播室，与主持人张佩芝女士交谈，并就这个历史性事件发表他的看法，回答中国的观众、听众的问题并与之交流。

以下是节目开始时，魏京生先生发表的几个主要观点：

1. 中共1989年在中国的屠杀对世界各国独裁者是鼓励。那使得这些独裁者们以为靠暴力就可以镇压人民。卡扎菲学的就是邓小平。

2. 中共所谓“尊重利比亚人民的选择”，其实指的是利比亚独裁政府。因为中共认为，那个政府就代表人民。中共也一样，认为自己代表人民。

3. 从突尼斯到利比亚的阿拉伯民主运动，对中国人民是个很大的鼓励。而利比亚人民以武力赶走卡扎菲，说明老百姓也能以武力推翻独裁政府，即使政府有现代化的武器。这对中共是个警告，不要以为它总能用军队来镇压人民。

4. 中共抓捕艾未未用的是它传统的流氓手法。但中共没有预料且畏惧于国际压力，只好放了他。但最近有一种情况应引起大家的注意，即最近被抓再释放的异议人士出来后都不太敢说话。据说他们在里面受到酷刑，出来时受到实际的威胁。

5. 中共最近对异议人士予以更严厉的镇压。一方面是因为阿拉伯之春对中共是个警告，即使是靠军队也难以镇压下去。另一方面则是因为国际社会没有那么大的压力了。

在听众来电时，云南的周先生表示：中共声称“尊重利比亚人民的选择，”却不尊重中国人民自己的选择。如今老百姓大骂共产党，相信中国很快会变。

在回答一位听众关于和平转变的评论时，魏先生指出：能理解大家都希望和平转变。但民主化过程的暴力与否，却不是老百姓的愿望来决定的。今年的几个阿拉伯国家的变化就是证明。比方说埃及的穆巴拉克让步了，它的过程就比较平稳；而卡扎菲不让步，利比亚就不是。卡扎菲使用军队，老百姓只好起来造反。而军队也是老百姓，最后他们还是以武力赶走独裁者。魏京生还说：中国的军人也是老百姓，从军官到士兵的大多数还是有良心的。其实在1989年时，很多军人就不愿意去镇压老百姓。而现在军队的文化素质与获取信息的能力比20年前更强。如果中国再发生大规模示威，牵涉到全中国人民的愿望，中国军队的大部分军人可能会像埃及人那样做出正确的选择。

江西林先生说：“历史潮流不可阻挡。可如今共产党总说要稳定压倒一切。”另一位网友也指出：“中共总是强调稳定压倒一切。国家的发展确实需要稳定。但像中共这样不切实际地解决社会不公问题，靠压制利益受害方的合理诉求来维持表面的平静并非真正的稳定，而是在进一步加剧社会矛盾。”作为回应，魏京生说：中共为了保障其统治的稳定，而大喊稳定，其实正说明它的不稳定。民主制度才是真正的稳定，尽管每件具体的事都要解决，都有一段小小的、短期的不稳定。而对老百姓不公，当然就无法稳定。有些人得到了经济上的好处，能理解他们希望稳定的想法。但中国大部分的老百姓却还过着贫苦的生活。

在回应河南郭先生“不患寡，而患不均”的评语时，魏先生说：“我刚读到一组数据，其中提到中国55%的人每天收入小于2美元，这是联合国定的贫苦线的标准。64镇压后20年了，他们的境况没有改善。他们没有人权，连温饱都没有，是既寡又不均。当人们生活都过不下去时，又怎么能稳定？”

湖北的王先生指出：中共很脆弱。它的官员捞够了，财产也转移了。辽宁的高先生以当地发生的实际情况指出：目前中共对茉莉花革命很紧张。广东的陈先生说：中共政治太腐败，大家要齐心协力来共同得到人权民主，也希望欧美等民主国家的支持。

魏京生先生回应他们说，外界的支持和帮助的确重要。在过去，国际社会的支持对每个国家的重大变化都起了作用，尤其是现在民主已是世界潮流。这次利比亚也是，欧美给与了尽可能的帮助。但在全民都反对独裁者时，即使没有这些帮助，独裁者即便能维持一时，也不能维持永远。如果没有国际帮助，利比亚人民也许会付出更大的牺牲，但最后他们还是会把卡扎菲赶走。中国人民也一样。

魏京生先生还响应了一位网友关于“美国等自由世界应加大对中国大陆的宣传，否则中共就会反过来对自由世界作宣传”的评论，他表示：“美国等国家应加大其支持民主自由的言论，向中国的老百姓宣扬民主，传递民主的信息。这次从埃及到利比亚的阿拉伯之春，媒体就起了很大的作用。”

最后，魏京生表示同意一位网民有关“没有64屠杀，中国的发展会更快，更实在”的说法。

美国之音相关节目连接：

http://www.voanews.com/chinese/news/20110901-Issues-and-Opinions-Libyas-Opposition-Success-and-Chinas-Social-Conflict-and-Democratic-Movement-128887478.html