Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A725-W455
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号： A725-W455
Release
Date: August 5, 2012
发布日：2012年8月5日
Topic:
Radio Free Asia's Video Series About the Life of Wei Jingsheng, Who Challenges
Authoritarian Regimes (Video Links and Transcript of Part 2)
标题：自由亚洲电台访谈节目“历程” -- “挑战独裁的魏京生”专题（中集的录像及文字）
Original
Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
Note:
Please use "Simplified Chinese (GB2312)" encoding to view the Chinese
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http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2012/report2012-08/WeiJSprofile120805RFAinterview2A725-W455.htm which
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
Radio
Free Asia's Video Series About the Life of Wei Jingsheng, Who Challenges
Authoritarian Regimes (Video Links and Transcript of Part 2)
Radio
Free Asia Mandarin service has launched a video series on its homepage
introducing the life story of Wei Jingsheng (at
http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/). The
following is the text content and the web link of the second part of the special
video interview program "Course of Life" about Wei Jingsheng, who
challenges authoritarian regimes:
http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/duomeiti/tebiejiemu/lcwjs-07112012114743.html
with
its video also available at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66r5bQVt0A
The
RFA webpage for the first part of the interview:
http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/duomeiti/tebiejiemu/lic-06252012153247.html
with
its video also available at:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2012/RFAprofile2012WeiJingSheng1.mp4
The
following is the transcript of Part 2 of the series about Wei Jingsheng. For the related information on Part 1,
please visit:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2012/report2012-07/WeiJSprofile120715RFAinterview1A724-W454.htm
__ __ __
Radio
Free Asia Mandarin Services Launches a Video Series Introducing the Life of Wei
Jingsheng, Who Challenges Authoritarian Regimes (Transcript of Part 2)
Radio
Free Asia: Why has Mr. Wei Jingsheng, as a child of a high-ranking official,
called out "for democracy or a new dictatorship"? Why did he spend his youth in prison
without regrets? Please join us to
listen to his course of life, part 2.
Narrator:
1978 was a vigorous year for the Chinese democracy movement, as well as the
year that Wei Jingsheng lost his freedom for fifteen years. The third day after he wrote "For
Democracy, or a New Dictatorship?" (which targeted criticism directed at
China's paramount leader Deng Xiaoping) in the "Exploration"
magazine, he was put in prison.
That year, he was just 28 years old.
Wei
Jingsheng: The Democracy Wall Movement started at 1977 and 1978. After Down with the Gang of Four, the
Communist Party relaxed a little, and a lot of people were petitioning. Petitioning had been there before, but
then there were more, and also bolder petitions. Some people began to put their posters in many places in
Beijing, appealing their own grievances.
The most favored location was Xidan, which was a concentration place of
several bus terminuses. Also,
there was a big wall right outside the bus terminals, a wall between the Telegraph
Building and Xidan Stadium. That
wall was particularly long, with especially many people coming and going, and
it later became the hottest place to put up posters. This was the so-called Xidan Wall. Later, from December 1978, we young people started to talk
about democracy there. That was
not because we had grievances, but just to express our political views since
there were no other channels.
These discussions also included a lot of people from the art circles
because their works could not be published, such as poetry and paintings. The Xidan Wall became the Democracy
Wall. Later on, a group of
well-known poets and painters in fact were the people from the Democracy
Wall. Because we had nowhere to
publish, including our political opinions, we posted our stuff on the Democracy
Wall. Slowly, that place turned
into a place to talk about democracy, freedom, human rights, and the arts. So people like to call it the
"Democracy Wall".
Reporter:
But at that time, did you think this movement will succeed for sure?
Wei
Jingsheng: Relatively naive people thought that the Communist Party had
relaxed, so if they had a movement, they would be successful later on. These
people spoke in a well-measured way, and tried their best not to cross the
bottom line of the Communist Party.
Of course the degree of each person varied. However, our "Exploration" magazine was the most
straightforward. After I put up my
poster the first time, a group of people found me who were ready to publish a
magazine. Even at that time, I
told them, do not think that the Communist Party will not punish you. During that time, it just happened to
be a period when an internal struggle within the Communist Party was very
intense, as Deng Xiaoping wanted to oust Hua Guofeng. This struggle was so intense that no one could take care of
our end. We took advantage of this
relaxation to promote our thoughts, to let people read, to get these ideas
seeded in people's hearts, thus to be able to take root, to blossom, and to
bear the fruit. Then shortly after
we would probably have to go to jail and be beheaded. There were about 17 to 18 of us in total. And I said to them: "do not decide
today if you will join us or not; I give you 3 days to think about if you are
determined to be beheaded with me or not.
If you have such a determination, then you could join in
officially. If you do not have
such a determination, then we will just count you as helping us instead of
officially joining, so you will not be beheaded with us in the
future." Altogether at the
end we only had 4 core members that included myself. The other three people did have the determination, and said,
"Old Wei, we will just follow you to be beheaded, we will sacrifice to do
this." We all knew that our
organization would not last long.
When the Communist Party settled its internal conflict, it will turn
around to punish us. So after Deng
Xiaoping got rid of Hua Guofeng, and then beat up Vietnam to establish his
authority, the first thing he did was to clean up the Democracy Wall. This also reveals the essence of Deng
Xiaoping.
Reporter:
At that time, you thought the Democracy Wall was targeting the people, instead
of the government?
Wei
Jingsheng: It was impossible to target the government. Of course, many people say that the
Democracy Wall movement had a great influence within the Communist Party, that
Deng Xiaoping was able to borrow its strength to overthrow Hua Guofeng. But I think that even if he did not use
it, he could still overthrow Hua Guofeng.
What was important is that we had this time to send our ideas to the
people's minds. Not every person
could think thoroughly on these issues.
Most people need others to let them know. When they heard it, then they would take time to think of
these issues in their brains and they will understand. Sowing seeds of thought is very
important. The greatest
significance of the Democracy Wall movement is that the seed was sowed in the
hearts of the ordinary people in China.
The years of brainwashing by the Communist Party is also very effective,
so the majority of Chinese people thought that they could only select leaders
from within the Communist Party.
One faction of the Party is better, in comparison to another faction that
is bad. What we pointed out to the
Chinese people is that there is a road without the Communist Party. The Communist Party itself is bad. I think giving out this idea is very
important.
Reporter:
This statement is relatively acute, direct saying to get rid of the Communist
Party.
Wei
Jingsheng: We have various options, why do we have to have the Communist Party
to govern us? Not to say that
besides Hu Yaobang, we have to either choose Hua Guofeng, or choose Deng
Xiaoping. Why do we have to choose
in this circle (within the Communist Party)? We could have another system, and not to have the system of
the Communist Party.
Reporter:
In other words, The Chinese nation is not the Communist Party.
Wei
Jingsheng: Yes! After this idea
was released, the ordinary people received it very well. There were so many people -- seas of
people and mountains of people.
When we were selling our magazines, we were squeezed to the ground. So we had to climb up to top of the
wall to sell our magazines. Even
more, many people handed us the money without asking for a change. At that time, the highest currency
value was ten RenMinBi. The
magazine we were selling was pretty expensive. The (Communist Party's official magazine) Red Flag was
selling for only thirty cents then.
But we were selling our magazine for one and half RMB, very
expensive. But many people handed
us 10 RMB without wanting change.
In fact, people supported us in their hearts. Every day, as soon as we posted a new one, immediately there
was such a huge crowd that even the buses had trouble getting out their
terminals.
Narrator:
On December 5, 1978, Wei Jingsheng posted a signed big-character essay
"The Fifth Modernization: Democracy and others" on the Democracy
Wall. In his essay, he expressed
that freedom and democracy is more important than improving life, asked for
soul searching of the personal dictatorship of Mao Zedong, and advocated
political democratization. Wei
Jingsheng, Yang Guang, Lu Lin, Liu Jingsheng and others founded the "Exploration"
magazine. On March 25, 1979, Wei Jingsheng
put up a big-character poster again, "For Democracy, or a New
Dictatorship? ", straightly pointing out that what Deng Xiaoping is doing
is a dictatorship. Wei further
stated that, in accordance with the principles of democracy, any authority must
bow to the opposition from the people.
On March 29, 1979, Wei Jingsheng was arrested, and later sentenced to 15
years in jail in the name of counter-revolutionary crimes.
Wei
Jingsheng: Actually, I think my idea then was right -- to put new ideas into the
minds of ordinary people, so China can change slowly. If people did not recognize the problem, how could China
change?
Reporter:
You said that you thought you could lose your head. Or even the fact is that you were imprisoned for fifteen
years; do you think it was worth it?
Just to make people understand this truth, you sacrificed so many years
of time, do you think it was worth it?
Wei
Jingsheng: I think for every country, every nation, if you want it to move
forward, someone has to come to sacrifice. Why? The nation
has to entertain new ideas. These
new ideas will always impact the existing interest groups. The sacrifice of these people could be
big or small. The greatest
advantage of a democratic system is that we can speak easily. When people have new ideas, they do not
have to pay too high a price.
Otherwise, the new ideas are not easy to come out. However, if a nation does not have new
ideas, then it surely will meet its end.
To make this kind of sacrifice, each nation will have a group of people
who come forward. The key is to
select a time. The fact is that,
before us, there were many people who sacrificed and their bravery was no less
than ours. Or to put it in another
way, we just chose a better time, at least to say a little more. Finally actually I am still alive. This is not what I thought of
initially.
Reporter:
When you were sentenced to fifteen years, had you thought of fifteen
years? Is this figure beyond your
expectation?
Wei
Jingsheng: It was out of my expectation.
So I swayed once on the court (when the sentence was announced). The two young judicial police holding
me and said: "Old Wei, be calm." In fact, I swayed because I was happy. It was because that I thought that I
would get a death sentence.
Instead, I will survive after this 15 years time. That was a good thing that I
survived. Then there was a
possibility for me to go out. The
result is that I did come out alive.
Reporter:
Is it so ...
Wei
Jingsheng: So I was pleased.
Originally I thought it was the death penalty. This is a step up in Chinese legal history. Because prior to this, before me, even
for counter-revolutionary crimes that were lighter than mine, people basically
were executed by the firing squad.
Some of them even simply speaking for the Communist Party, such as Zhang
Zhixin, were executed by the firing squad as well. I publicly opposed the Communist Party, so not been executed
was very unlikely. However, after
me, political prisoners have not been executed, and rarely are there people
received longer sentences than me.
Reporter:
So you were determined to die when you did it?
Wei
Jingsheng: Yes, I held the determination to die. Not just me, but also those few buddies of mine; we were all
holding the determination to die.
Reporter:
But you had an old father at home.
How to solve the conflict between loyalty to the people and filial piety
to your father?
Wei
Jingsheng: There is no reconciliation in between these two. I am loyal to my country and my people,
so I could not do much (with my filial piety). Of course, my father's generation was like that, so they can
understand.
Reporter:
You were in prison for fifteen years.
When was the most difficult period of time? How did you make it?
Wei
Jingsheng: The first few years were the most difficult. The Communist Party has a set of ways
to drive people crazy in that first few years, which was to lock you in a room
and not allow anyone to talk to you.
Of course, they would not allow the family came to visit for more than
one year, nearly two years. More
so, at the beginning, they locked me in a cell on death row for eight months
until I wrote a letter to (the Communist leader) Peng Zhen and scolded at him. A week later, Peng Zhen transferred me
to a normal prison; of course, still by myself. In this way, being locked up alone, without knowing friends
and family members outside, one would be very bored and depressed.
Reporter:
Without a newspaper to read?
Wei
Jingsheng: You were given nothing.
Not allowed to talk, and not even a piece of paper was allowed to get
in. Under this situation, people
were very disturbed, to such a degree that you rather to have someone come in
to beat you. It was a pain
exploding from inside outwards.
For this reason, many political prisoners such as Wang Guangmei (note by
the editor: the wife of the persecuted Chinese President Liu Shaoqi) become
crazy and insane. This is a very
classical method.
Once
I was lecturing at the French Academy of Social Sciences. That was 1998. I said it was a cruel torture invented
by the Communist Party. A
white-haired old man, its academician, raised his hand and said that he did not
agree. I asked why. He said, "These methods you talked
about were not invented by the Communist Party, but by the medieval monarchs in
Europe to deal with their competitors." That to be locked alone, after a period of time, a person
becomes crazy. When you are crazy,
you will not be competitive. For
example, if the competitor was your brother, he cannot kill you, but he can
make you crazy. This and other
brutal methods were invented in medieval Europe, and the Communist Party is
just making use of them. Seems to
be the Chinese Communist Party learned them from the Soviet Union.
Reporter:
So how did you get through that period of time?
Wei
Jingsheng: It was very hard to tolerate.
Of course not everyone will be crazy. Han AiJing was also a political prisoner, who was sentenced
a little later than me. We were
sent to Qinghai together. He had
psychological problems later on.
But not Kuai Dafu (note by the editor: another well-known political
prisoner like Han.). Not everyone
becomes crazy. People are
different. In general, after more
than a year to two, if one was ok, one will likely stay ok. I have my own methods. Before I went to jail, I interviewed
some of the old cadres who were persecuted. So I knew this is what they use in jail. The description by these old cadres was
that, for a period of time, if you suddenly found that you were thinking of one
thing without a way to stop, then you were about to go crazy. So I found in prison when I thought of
an issue for too long, I realized it could be bad. At that time, I would force myself to think about other
issues. Fortunately, when I was in
junior high school, I loved a wide range of topics including science and
technology, culture and art, just about everything. So often I wrote poetry, or calculated algebra, or thought
to invent something, pretending to invent something to the least, gradually got
rid of this situation. When a
person stays in that kind of totally quiet environment, their mind cannot
withstand it. Because people are
social animals, without communication with others they will be mad.
Reporter:
You could also sing.
Wei
Jingsheng: Yes, singing. During my
junior high years, we were taught Russian. Later on, I asked my younger siblings to sent me Russian
books, which resulted in a big misunderstanding. There were people who left my jail saying: "Old Wei's
Russian was really good." My Russian
was not good at all. But I held my
Russian book and read out aloud, just to divert my mind, instead of keeping
thinking of the same thing. Or
singing out loud for the purpose of not constantly thinking about the same
issue, to divert attention. I
think this is very important. Later on, I asked Kuai Dafu, and he seemed to use
a similar approach.
Reporter:
During that time, did you regret doing what you did?
Wei
Jingsheng: There is nothing to regret, because everything was thought out
ahead. I am different than some
people. Some people did not think
ahead and thought it would be all right.
So when they were arrested, of course it was hard to bear. This is normal. Originally, they thought that the
Communist Party would not arrest them.
But when they were arrested and treated miserably, of course they would
regret it. But people like me
would have no regrets. The several
core members of our "Exploration" magazine would not regret anything,
because we were prepared ahead to lose our heads. When we kept our heads, it was really a good deal. So what is there to regret? Nothing.
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中文版
Wei
Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A725-W455
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号： A725-W455
Release
Date: August 5, 2012
发布日：2012年8月5日
Topic:
Radio Free Asia's Video Series About the Life of Wei Jingsheng, Who Challenges
Authoritarian Regimes (Video Links and Transcript of Part 2)
标题：自由亚洲电台访谈节目“历程” -- “挑战独裁的魏京生”专题（中集的录像及文字）
Original
Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2012/report2012-08/WeiJSprofile120805RFAinterview2A725-W455.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------
自由亚洲电台访谈节目“历程” -- “挑战独裁的魏京生”专题（中集的录像及文字）
自由亚洲电台普通话首页近期隆重推出有关魏京生生平的视频系列集。以下是历程访谈节目“挑战独裁的魏京生”专题中集的文字内容及自由亚洲电台相关网页联接：
http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/duomeiti/tebiejiemu/lcwjs-07112012114743.html
相关录像也可以在以下网页上看到：
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66r5bQVt0A
上集的文字内容及相关联接
http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/duomeiti/tebiejiemu/lic-06252012153247.html
该录像也可以在以下网页上观看：
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2012/RFAprofile2012WeiJingSheng1.mp4
以下为中集中集相关文字。有关上集的相关内容，请访问：
http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2012/report2012-07/WeiJSprofile120715RFAinterview1A724-W454.htm
__ __ __
自由亚洲电台访谈节目“历程” -- “挑战独裁的魏京生” （中集）
自由亚洲电台：作为高干子弟的魏京生先生，为何喊出"要民主还是要新的独裁"？为何置青春年华于狱中却无怨无悔？请和我们一起聆听他的历程。
画外音：一九七八年既是中国民主运动轰轰烈烈的一年，也是魏京生从此失去了十五年自由的开始。当他在《探索》杂志写出《要民主，还是要新的独裁?》，批评矛头直指中国最高领导人邓小平的第三天之后，就被关进了监狱。而那年，他才刚刚28岁。
魏京生：民主墙运动最早是七七、七八开始。打倒四人帮以后，共产党放松了一些，有很多人上访。上访很早就有，不过那个时候上访的人多，胆子也比较大。有的人就开始在北京的很多点贴大字报，申诉自己的冤情。最集中的一个点是西单，那是多个公共汽车总站的交集处。而且总站外面有很大的一道墙，电报大楼和西单体育场之间的一道墙。那道墙特别长，而且来来往往的人特别多。那个地方后来成为最火、最热的贴大字报的地方。这就是所谓的西单墙。后来从78年12月起，我们这些小青年开始在那里谈民主，不是因为自己有冤情，而是为了发表自己的政见，因为没有别的渠道。还包括好多文艺界的人，作品没法发表，比如诗歌、绘画等。
后来一批很有名的诗人、画家，其实都是民主墙的人。因为大家无处发表，包括有政治见解的人，都到民主墙去贴。慢慢地，这块地方就以谈论民主、自由、人权，艺术为主了。所以大家喜欢称之为“民主墙”。
记者：但是那时您认为这个运动一定能成功吗？
魏京生：比较天真的人，认为共产党放松了，我们在这儿搞起个运动来，以后能成事。他们这些人说话很有分寸，尽可能不碰共产党的底线。当然程度各人不等。而我们的《探索》杂志是说得最直白的。我第一次贴了大字报，好几个人找到我，准备搞个杂志。我当时就对这几个人说，不要以为共产党不来收拾你们。那段时候，正好是共产党内部斗争非常激烈的时候，邓小平要把华国锋赶下台。党内斗争非常激烈，没人管我们的事情，大家要趁着这段松动的时间，赶快宣传我们的想法，让老百姓看到，在老百姓的心里发酵，去生根、开花、结果。然后很快我们可能就要进监狱，就要被杀头。当时找我的有十七、八个人呢。我对他们说，咱们今天不要决定参加不参加，给你们三天，回去考虑考虑，你有没有决心跟我一起掉脑袋？有这个决心再正式参加，没有这个决心就算帮忙，不要正式参加，将来不要跟着我们一起掉脑袋。所有后来我们的核心成员只有四个人，加上我一共四个人。另外这三个人是有这个决心的，说“老魏我们就跟着你掉脑袋，豁出去干一下”。我们这个组织大家都知道，时间不会太长。等共产党内部的事情搞定了，回过头就要收拾我们。所以邓小平把华国锋搞掉以后，然后打越南树立了威信，之后第一件事情就是收拾民主墙。这也显示出了邓小平的本质。
记者：那您当时觉得民主墙这个运动是针对民众的，而不是针对政府的？
魏京生：不可能（针对政府）。当然，很多人说民主墙运动对中共内部影响很大，邓小平借用这个力量打倒了华国锋。但是我觉得他不借用这个力量，照样能打倒华国峰。重要的是我们有这段时间把我们的想法送到老百姓的脑子里。不是每个老百姓都会把问题想透，大多数老百姓总得需要别人去告诉他们。他们听到了，放在脑子里慢慢想，
然后就明白了。所以播思想的种子非常重要。当时民主墙运动最大的意义，就是在中国老百姓内心里播了一个种子。共产党多年洗脑工作也很有效，大部分中国人都认为只能在共产党里面选，这拨好点，那拨坏点。我们给老百姓指出，还有不要共产党的那条路呢，共产党本身就不好。我觉得给出这个思想非常重要。
记者：这就比较尖锐了，直接说不要共产党了。
魏京生：我们有各种选择，干吗非得要共产党？不是说除了胡耀邦以外，只能要么选择华国锋，要么选择邓小平，干吗非要在这一个圈子里选呢？我们可以有别的制度，不是非得要共产党的制度。
记者：中华民族不是中共。
魏京生：对了！这个思想放出去以后，放在老百姓里发酵非常好。当时看的人非常多，人山人海。我们当时卖杂志的时候，自己都被挤到底下去了。我们没办法只好跑到墙头上去卖。而且很多人把钱递过来之后根本不要找钱。当时最大的票值是十块。我们卖得已经很贵了。《红旗》杂志当年才卖三毛钱，我们的卖一块五，已经很贵了。但是很多人递了十块钱上来不要找钱。其实老百姓在心里是支持我们的。每天我们一贴新的，马上连汽车站出车都困难，人山人海。
画外音：一九七八年十二月五日，魏京生在民主墙上署名贴出《第五个现代化——民主与其它》的大字报，认为自由民主比改善生活更重要，要求反省毛泽东的个人独裁，并主张政治民主化。之后，魏京生与杨光、路林、刘京生等人创办了《探索》杂志。一九七九年三月二十五日，魏京生又贴出大字报《要民主，还是要新的独裁？》，直言邓小平走的是独裁路线；并写道，按照民主的原则，任何权威也必须在人们的反对面前低头。一九七九年三月二十九日，魏京生被逮捕，后以反革命罪获刑十五年。
魏京生：其实我觉得我那个想法是对的，把新的想法放到老百姓的头脑中，这样中国才能慢慢地变。如果老百姓都不认识问题的话，那中国怎么变呢？
记者：您说过您想到过要掉脑袋，或者说，事实是事后您被关押了十五年。您觉得这值得吗？就为了让老百姓明白这个道理，您牺牲了自己这么多年的光阴，您觉得值得吗？
魏京生：我想每个国家、每个民族，如果想往前走，总得有人来牺牲。为什么？总得提出新的想法。这个新的想法总会触动当时的利益阶层。这些人的牺牲有大有小。民主制度最大的好处就是大家可以随便说话。有什么新的想法，不用付太大的代价。否则的话，新的想法不容易出来。但是一个民族、一个国家如果没有新想法的话，那肯定是最后要完蛋的。做这样的牺牲，每个民族都会有一批人挺身而出，关键是选择时间。实际上在我们之前，牺牲者很多，英勇得一点不比我们差。说难听点，我们只是选择了一个比较好的时机，至少能多说点话。最后居然还活下来了，这是原来没有想到的。
记者：当时判您十五年的时候，您有没有想过十五年？这个数字是否出乎你的意外？
魏京生：出乎我的意外。所以当时我在法庭上还晃了一下，两个小法警还在旁边扶着我说：“老魏，镇静点。”其实我晃了一下，是因为高兴得晃了一下，因为以前都认为是要判死刑的。居然我活下来了，有十五年的时间，我活下来，那就是好事。那就有可能出去。结果真的还出来了。
记者：是这样啊……
魏京生：所以我高兴。原来以为是判死刑呢。这是中国法制史上的一个坎。因为在这之前，在我之前，比我轻一点的反革命罪，基本上都被枪毙了。有些甚至只不过是为党说话，比如张志新，都被枪毙。我公开反对共产党，不枪毙的可能性几乎没有。但从我之后，政治犯基本上没有被枪毙，而且判刑也很少有比我长的。
记者：那您当时抱着一个必死的决心去做的？
魏京生：是的，抱的是必死的决心。不光我。我那几个哥们，都是抱着必死的决心。
记者：可是您家里还有老父亲。忠和孝这个问题怎么解决？
魏京生：忠孝不能两全。要忠于国家、忠于人民，那就没办法了。当然，我父亲他们那代人就是这么过来的，他们能理解。
记者：您在监狱里呆了十五年，您觉得最难的一段时间是什么时候？您又是怎么度过的？
魏京生：开始的几年最难。而且开始的几年共产党有一套办法能把人逼疯。就是把你关在一个屋子里，不许任何人跟你说话，当然也不许家里人来探视，差不多一年多，将近两年的时间。而且一开始还把我关在死牢里八个月。后来因为我写信把彭真骂了一顿，一个星期以后，彭真把我调到正常监狱里了，当然还是一个人关着。这样的话，一个人关押，你又不能知道外头的朋友、家人的信息的话，你会非常闷。
记者：报纸也不给看吗？
魏京生：什么也不给你。不许说话，而且一片纸也不准进来。这种情况下，人是非常痛苦的。而且在那种痛苦下，你恨不得有人进来打你一顿。是一种从里头往外的痛苦。很多政治犯就因为这个原因，像王光美，因为这个原因最后疯了，精神失常。这是一个很古典的方法。
一次我在法国社会科学院讲演，那是九八年，我说这是共产党发明的残酷刑法。一个白发老头，是院士，举手说他不同意。我说您为什么不同意呢？他说“您说的这些方法不是共产党发明的，而是欧洲中世纪的君主对付他们竞争对手的方法。”就是把你一个人关着，闷一段时间以后，人就疯掉了。疯掉了，你就没有竞争力了。比如说你兄弟，他不能杀你，但他能让你疯了。这是欧洲中世纪发明的残酷方法，共产党都拿来用了。好像是从苏联那里学来的。
记者：那您当时是怎么渡过那段时间的？
魏京生：很难受。当然不是所有人都会疯。韩爱晶，和我们同样的政治犯，比我判得稍微晚一些，后来一起被送到青海。他后来精神就出毛病了。但是蒯大富就没有。不是每个人都疯。人和人不一样。一般来说一年多到两年，不出事以后就不会了。我有我的方法。在这之前我采访过一些受迫害的老干部，我知道他们监狱里用这种方法。他们老干部对我描述的是，有段时间，你会突然发现你想一件事情没办法停下来的时候，这时候就快要出事了。所以我在监狱里发现，我要是想一个问题太久，脱不开的时候，我就发现坏了，要出事了。这个时候，我就强迫自己去想其它的问题。也好，我上中学的时候爱好特别广泛，科学技术、文化艺术，什么都爱好。所以经常是，一会儿我来写写诗，一会儿我来算算代数题，一会儿又想想发明点什么东西，假装发明点什么东西吧，这样就让我慢慢摆脱了这种状况。人在那种完全安静的环境下呆久了，心理无法承受。因为人是群居动物，你不能不和人交流，没有交流，人就要疯掉。
记者：还有唱歌啊。
魏京生：是的，唱歌。那时候我们中学学的是俄语。我后来让弟弟妹妹给我送来俄语书。后来还有个大误会，从监狱出来的人说：“老魏俄语特棒”。哪里是什么“特棒”。我拿着俄语书大声念，只是为了转移一下脑子，不要老想一个问题。或者大声唱歌，也是为了不要老想一个问题，转移注意力。我觉得这个挺重要的。后来问过蒯大富，他好像也用的是类似的方法。
记者：在那段时间里，你有没有感到后悔做这些事情？
魏京生：没什么后悔的。因为是事先想好的。这和有些人不一样。有些人事先没想好，他们以为没事，所以被抓起来了当然承受不住。这也很正常，他们本来想，共产党不会把我们抓起来，结果抓起来了，还整得很惨，当然后悔。像我们这种人不可能后悔，而且我们《探索》那几个核心成员都是不会后悔的。因为事先打了预防针，事先准备掉脑袋的。没掉脑袋，那已经赚了。呵呵，后悔什么？没什么可后悔的。
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