Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A824-W524

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号： A824-W524

Release Date: June 15, 2014

发布日：2014年6月15日

Topic: Wei Jingsheng Talks about the 25th Anniversary of June 4th Massacre (Radio France Internationale)

标题：魏京生谈纪念六四25周年(法国国际广播电台)

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

Note: Please use "Simplified Chinese (GB2312)" encoding to view the Chinese parts of this release. If this mail does not display properly in your email program, please send your request for special delivery to us or visit:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2014/report2014-06/WeiJSon64Massacre140615RFIinterviewA824-W524.htm　which contains identical information.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wei Jingsheng Talks about the 25th Anniversary of June 4th Massacre

-- by Xiao Shan, Radio France Internationale

May 14, 2014

June 4 of this year is the 25th memorial anniversary of the bloody crackdown of the movement of the young Chinese students and people who were anti-corruption and striving for democracy and freedom that started in the spring of 1989. Despite it having been 25 years and its memory and influence having weakened in China, it is still the reality that the June 4 massacre, along with the date and the numbers 6-4, are still sensitive content in China. Especially in this year it has become a strictly prohibited area of speach. The memory of June 4 is unable to be altered by some people's will, and still leaps into the Chinese political foreground. In Today's Europe Special program, we interview dissident Wei Jingsheng, who is in exile in the USA.

RFI (Radio France Internationale):

It is the June 4 anniversary again. What are new changes this year with the environment and background both inside China and outside, regarding this year's June 4th commemoration?

Wei Jingsheng:

I think there are changes this year. For about 10 year after the June 4 Massacre, people were very depressed and tried to avoid the issue. However, in the last few years, more and more people have been talking about it. There are demands to redress it. There are demands of accountability and responsibility. These demands include people such as Li Peng, ranked as the 2nd person responsible of the June 4 Massacre after Deng Xiaoping. Li Peng was in charge of the martial law and the massacre. Yet even he came out to defend himself and pushed the responsibility up to Deng Xiaoping, in trying to clean up his own responsibility. So the whole atmosphere is changing. I think the international community is still maintaining the momentum of the past, while there are more and more people inside China concerned of the June 4 issue.

Many people are asking me: if there is another June 4, how do you think people will respond? What about the Chinese army? What about the Chinese authorities? Many people have asked these questions.

RFI:

After the 18th Congress of the Chinese Communist Party, there were important changes with China's leadership. When people expect China to change in the direction toward democracy and openness, politically China has become even more aggressive and conservative, with even more severe repressions and clamps on all kinds of democracy and openness pursuit. What do you think are the reasons?

Wei Jingsheng:

I think it is due to two aspects. On one aspect, the communist regime is indeed crumbling. But the more it comes apart and the greater the nervousness of the people, the more tension and more suppression by the Communist Party. On the other aspect, the internal struggle within the Communist Party is becoming increasingly fierce. The stubborn conservative faction of the Communist Party also gives great pressure to the authorities. Thus, the authorities have to make some moves such as arrests to show to these diehards, because they feel a lot of pressure and feel that they have to do so.

RFI:

The memories of the June 4 Massacre are being filtered and erased in China. What consequences will this lead to in the Chinese society?

Wei Jingsheng:

I think one aspect that is being filtered is that it was a very tragic event where so many people died, yet there is no positive but backward result. So for most people, especially the commoners, they have a feeling of disappointment and frustration. They rarely talked about it in the 1990's. But the problem is that social conflicts still exist, Communist oppression still exists, and people are suffering every day. This reality is leading the people to rethink the June 4th issue. The massacre that followed the democracy movement had lead to many problems. We all have to think: What should we do now? We must draw lessons from the June 4 Massacre.

RFI:

Could economic development obliterate the impact and consequences of the June 4 Massacre?

Wei Jingsheng:

I think economic development is completely not the same thing. Some people only view from the perspective of the money. They think that if China has more money, it will be so and so. In fact, even if China has a lot of money people's life will not necessarily be better. Moreover, the current wealth is only the wealth of a small fraction of the people, to the degree that many them are on the list of richest people in the world. However, did the ordinary Chinese get wealthier? Maybe the average person did get some more money in absolute numbers. However from inflation and the actual consumption point of view, people's standard of living may not be much more than it was in the past.

China now has a problem of poverty. There are hundreds of millions of people in poverty, even though the standard of poverty in China is even lower than the standard defined by the United Nations. Then there are other problems: the education burden of ordinary people; the housing problems for young people of marriage age; education tuition problems for young people; further many people cannot afford medical expanses because the medical coverage has become more and more expensive, etc. All these are very real problems that burden people. So people have to think about why our lives are so bad. The more the economic development, the more people are thinking about these kinds of problems. They are saying that if China's economy ranked top in the world, why do the ordinary people have so many problems that cannot be solved? These problems have prompted people to rethink if they should let the regime continue to exist. Reality makes people think about these issues. During the events leading up to 1989, regardless whatever people say, the real issue was that people felt that the government, the one-party dictatorship of the Communist Party, should be changed. Now people are rethinking this issue. I think now is the eve of China having a big change to progress.

RFI:

In this context, what do you think are the initiatives or tactics that the Chinese authorities take to divert people's attention from pursuit the truth of the June 4 Massacre and accountability related to the Massacre?

Wei Jingsheng:

I think the authorities are blocking all related messages. Now the best media is the Internet, which is relatively free and fast spreading, as well as useful for teaching. But we see that the authorities blockade the Internet, not just about June 4, but also any discussion of democracy and reform, and all the serious topics that attract the people. Even in the past when the Internet blocking was not particularly successful, the authorities came up with a new approach. Often when some issues got discussed a lot, it formed a VIP culture with opinion leaders on the Internet that the netizens liked to follow. These VIP's have relatively larger influence on the people, so the authorities arrest some to scare the others too afraid to speak. This is called shooting the horse first when you want to shoot the rider, to catch the leader before you catch the rest of the gang. This trick may be more effective than the simple blocking of the Internet in the past. So the methods of repression by the Communist Party got refurbished as well.

RFI:

Although the Chinese authorities try to avoid and even prohibit the discussion of the June 4 Massacre, do you think that the Chinese authorities can avoid the topic of the June 4 Massacre?

Wei Jingsheng:

Li Peng coming out to try to say he has nothing to do with the June 4 Massacre proves that it is hard to avoid this topic. There was one whole generation of people involved! When one billion Chinese people experienced that event, it will be in people's memories that one cannot block regardless how hard you try, unless people are not willing to discuss it. But now people have begun to discuss it again. How could you block it? And more, this is a problem in the reality.

Worldwide, especially outside China, discussions of these issues have never stopped. In fact, it is already difficult to completely block the Internet. Many people know how to climb over the Internet firewall. These people, especially the young, learn some information that they think is very new and send it to their friends. The regime cannot block all. I think that trying to hide the problem away will not be successful. It is such a huge issue in reality. How could the regime conceal it? How could it avoid it? So it must consider the issue realistically and take actions.

Within the Communist Party, there are a lot of people think that reform is needed, instead of remaining in the past.

RFI:

Will the commemorations of June 4th this year lead to a new wave of rights defending and various demands of democratic and livelihood changes in the Chinese society this year?

Wei Jingsheng:

There is this possibility. When the rights defending movement rises, there will be more and more rights defending actions everywhere. Along with these actions, the means to resist tyranny is also growing strongly, even in the means of violence as learned from the June 4 experience. When the regime uses violence to suppress, then the people will use violence to resist. So there is an important topic here. If people start a movement inside China, this movement will spread to the whole country as it did in 1989 with many people responding for sure. This is one of the reasons that the Communist Party is very nervous. The authorities' spearhead of maintaining stability is against unexpected events, because it is afraid that one particular incident will trigger national reaction just as happened in Tunisia.

So I think that of course it may not be likely to happen during this June 4 commemoration period. During this period, the Communist Party would be fully mobilized to deal with any unrest. They might even detain the leaders of the masses or so-called sensitive characters, and get a bunch of police watching you, or send you to some other places. We cannot say that these measures have no effect, indeed these measures put down the signs of the movement.

But it might not necessarily occur during the June 4 period. When the rights defending movement results in more and more resistance in numbers and in intensity, it is hard to say at what place and at what time will happen something like what happened in Tunisia when a little vendor's self-immolation resulted in a major event. This kind of thing can happen anywhere, anytime.

RFI:

What do you foresee in the June 4 commemoration outside China this year?

Wei Jingsheng:

On the one hand, democracy and freedom-loving people including activists of the democracy movement will be actively making commemorations in various places including big cities such as Washington DC, New York, and Paris. Especially in Hong Kong, they will be holding large events for sure.

But on the other hand, the Communist Party has not been idle. They are also using a variety of ways to destroy the June 4 commemoration. They are worried that overseas commemoration of June 4 would bring a great encouragement to people inside China, and thus result in unexpected events. So the authorities are very afraid of these commemorations and take a variety of methods in dealing with them.

For example: the commemoration of June 4 Massacre in Washington DC has been held in front of the Chinese embassy in the USA every year. But the Communist Party had taken a lot of means to avoid it. When the commemoration was held elsewhere, it was not that strongly symbolic. For such a little thing, it will spend a lot of effort to the degree that some very well disguised people, let us not call them as spies, would jump out to insist moving the commemoration away from the Chinese embassy. Further, they are financially sound and pull people away several months ahead. From this perspective, the Communist Party is really very afraid of this June 4 topic. The massacre was so violent, with such significant psychological impact to the people in the whole country, how could the regime avoid it? I think the Communist Party is really not smart - it cannot avoid this subject, it cannot block it through a media blockade, and it will lose control one day when it relies entirely on repression.

Original link of this interview:

http://www.chinese.rfi.fr/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD/20140514-%E9%AD%8F%E4%BA%AC%E7%94%9F%E8%B0%88%E7%BA%AA%E5%BF%B5%E5%85%AD%E5%9B%9B25%E5%91%A8%E5%B9%B4-0

Related interview is also available at:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2014/Europe_Special_4juin_14_05_2014_Wei_jingsheng_mixe.mp3

Related photos:

1. Wei Jingsheng speaking in front of the Chinese Embassy in USA on May 31, 2014:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-4/WeiJSspeaking140531on64-c-5.jpg

2. Wei Jingsheng mourns victims of the June 4 Massacre in 1989:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-4/WeiJScandle140531vigil-c-5.jpg

3. Wei Jingsheng welcome friends in his office on May 31, 2014:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-4/WeiJSwelcome140531friends-c-6.jpg

4. Wei Jingsheng welcome friends in his office on May 30, 2014:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2014/newsletters2014-4/WeiJSwelcome140530friends-c-6.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------

This is a message from WeiJingSheng.org

The Wei Jingsheng Foundation and the Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition are dedicated to the promotion of human rights and democratization in China. We appreciate your assistance and help in any means. We pledge solidarity to all who struggle for human rights and democratic governance on this planet.

You are welcome to use or distribute this release. However, please credit with this foundation and its website at: www.weijingsheng.org

Although we are unable to afford to pay royalty fees at this time, we are seeking your contribution as well. You may send your articles, comments and opinions to: HCP@weijingsheng.org. Please remember, only in text files, not in attachments.

For website issues and suggestions, you may contact our professional staff and web master at: webmaster@Weijingsheng.org

To find out more about us, please also visit our websites at: www.WeiJingSheng.org and www.ChinaLaborUnion.org for news and information for Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition and human rights and democracy movement as whole, especially our Chinese Labor Union Base.

You may contact Ciping Huang at: HCP@Weijingsheng.org or

Wei Jingsheng Foundation office at: 1-202-270-6980

Wei Jingsheng Foundation's postal address is:

Wei Jingsheng Foundation, P. O. Box 15449, Washington, DC 20003, USA

You are receiving this message because you had previous shown your interest in learning more about Mr. Wei Jingsheng and the Chinese Democratic Movement. To be removed from the list, simply reply this message and use "unsubscribe" as the Subject. Please allow us a few days to process your request.

*****************************************************************

中文版

Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A824-W524

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号： A824-W524

Release Date: June 15, 2014

发布日：2014年6月15日

Topic: Wei Jingsheng Talks about the 25th Anniversary of June 4th Massacre (Radio France Internationale)

标题：魏京生谈纪念六四25周年(法国国际广播电台)

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2014/report2014-06/WeiJSon64Massacre140615RFIinterviewA824-W524.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------

魏京生谈纪念六四25周年

-- 法国国际广播电台小山

2014年 5月 14日

今年六月四日是1989年春天始发的中国青年学生以及民众反腐败争取民主自由运动遭到当局血腥镇压25周年的祭日。尽管六四事件已经过去25年，外界评论六四事件的记忆和影响在中国被淡化减弱，但六四事件，连同六四这个日子与数字本身在中国仍然是敏感内容的客观事实，尤其在今年成为被非常严厉禁止的禁区，对六四事件的纪念仍然不以人们的意志为转移而跃上中国政治前台。今日欧洲专题节目采访流亡美国的持不同政见人士魏京生。

法广：

又到六四纪念日，今年的纪念六四中国国内外的大背景大环境有什么新的变化？

魏京生：

我想还是有变化的。因为六四以后曾经有那么十年的时间，大家都很消沉，避谈这个问题。但最近这几年谈论六四问题越来越多了。有要求平反的，有要求追究责任的，包括像李鹏这样的人，六四的第二号人物，邓小平是第一号，李鹏是第二号，是主持戒严和屠杀的，连他都出来为自己辩解，把责任推给邓小平，意思就是说责任不是他的。所以可以说，气氛整个都在变化。我认为国际社会还是继续保持以往的势头，而国内的老百姓关注六四问题的越来越多了。

很多人都在问，再来一次六四，老魏你觉得老百姓会是怎么样，军队会怎么样，当局会怎么样？问这个问题的人非常多。

法广：

中共18大以后，中国的领导层发生了重要的变化，在人们期待中国朝民主开放的方向改变之时，中国却出现了政治上更为激进保守，对各种民主开放的追求镇压与钳制更为严厉，您认为这是为什么？

魏京生：

我觉得应当从两个方面讲。一方面共产党这个政权确实是摇摇欲坠，而越是到摇摇欲坠的时候，人们就会很紧张，共产党本身就很紧张，加强镇压。另外一个方面，共产党内部的斗争越来越激烈。共产党顽固保守派给予当局的压力也很大，所以当局也不得不做出一些姿态出来。比如抓些人，做做样子出来。做给这些顽固派看，因为他们觉得这些压力很大，不得不这么做。

法广：

六四的记忆在中国被淡化被抹去，这在中国社会引发了什么样的后果呢？

魏京生：

我想被淡化的一个背景是这个事件很惨痛，死了那么多人，没有什么结果反而还倒退了，大部分人，特别是老百姓有一种失望沮丧的感觉。在上个世纪90年代很少谈论了。问题是社会矛盾还存在，共产党的压迫还存在，老百姓的痛苦每天都在发生着。这个现实又让老百姓重新思考六四的问题了。六四民主运动继而被屠杀引出很多问题，大家都要思考：现在应当怎么做，要吸取六四的经验教训。

法广：

经济发展能够抹杀六四造成的冲击与后果吗？

魏京生：

我想这完全不是一回事。有些人仅仅从向钱看的角度来看，认为中国钱多了，钱多了就会怎么怎么样。其实中国钱再多，生活也不见得就会生活得更好。何况现在所谓钱多只是一小部分人钱多，甚至很多人都被列入世界富豪榜了。可是普通老百姓他们的钱多了吗？也许从钱的数量上讲老百姓可能比过去多得多了，但从实际消费来看，从人民的生活环境来看，就未必比过去多得多。

中国现在有贫困问题，就有上亿的人没有脱贫，受穷的标准甚至比联合国规定的贫困标准还要低。然后是教育问题，普通的老百姓的教育负担问题；年轻人结婚住房问题；再年轻的上学受教育学费问题；还有医疗问题，很多人看不起病，因为医疗越来越贵看不起病；等等等等。这些都是很现实的问题压在人们的身上。所以人们思考为什么我们的生活这么糟糕，既然是经济发展，越是经济发展人们就是越要思考这样的问题。你一说就是中国经济世界排第一了，可是老百姓的生活怎么会有这么多的问题解决不了呢？这些问题都促使人们重新思考这个政权要不要让它存在了。现实让大家思考这些问题，六四的时候不管大家说得多么重，真正的问题是你得改一改，你这政府，共产党一党独裁制度，大家觉得不行了，应当改一改。现在人们重新思考这个问题，我认为这是中国快要进步的大变化的前夜。

法广：

您认为在这样的背景下中国当局正在采取哪一些举措或者手法来转移人们追求六四真相以及追究六四责任的关注呢？

魏京生：

我想当局会封锁所有相关的消息，现在最好的媒体就是网络媒体，比较自由，传播得也快，大家看起来也方便。但可以看到当局对网络的封锁，不仅是六四的事情，包括谈论民主的，谈论改革的凡是能够吸引老百姓的话题都被封锁了。甚至过去网络封锁情况不是特别好的情况下，当局想出了新的办法。因为网络上往往谈论问题谈得多了，谈论的观点大家喜欢，形成了一种网络大V的文化，形成网络上群众领袖，大家都喜欢看他的东西，大V对人们的影响力比较大，当局就采取射人先射马、擒贼先擒王的办法，把这些大V都抓起来，至少先抓几个，吓得其他大V都不敢说话了。这一招可能比过去单纯封锁网络还要有效果。所以说共产党镇压的手段也在不断翻新。

法广：

尽管中国当局避免谈论而且也禁止谈论六四，您认为中国当局能够避开得了六四的话题吗？

魏京生：

你想连李鹏都出来想撇开六四那就证明很难避开六四。因为那一代人都在那儿呢！10亿中国人都经历了这个事件，你再怎么封锁，在大家的记忆里面你是封锁不了的。除非大家不愿意谈论，但大家现在又重新开始谈论了，你怎么能够封锁得了呢？而且这又是一个现实的问题。

在全世界范围内尤其是在中国之外，一直没有停止谈论这些问题。实际上网络已经是很难完全封锁了，很多人会翻墙出来，他们尤其是小青年看到一些信息觉得很新鲜，他会自己用伊妹儿传给他的朋友，这也是你封锁不了的。我认为躲是躲不过去的，那么大的一个现实的问题你怎么能够掩盖得了？你怎么能够躲得过去？所以必须现实地考虑问题，采取措施。

共产党内部也有很多人觉得应当改革，不能老是停留在过去。

法广：

今年中国纪念六四的情况会不会引发新的一波社会维权以及各种各样的民生民主的诉求？

魏京生：

有这种可能。因为维权运动兴起以后，各个地方都可以观察得到数量是越来越多的维权，反抗暴政的手段也越来越强烈，很多地方甚至就是暴力反抗。你用暴力镇压我，我就用暴力反抗。所以有一个重要的话题放在这儿，如果大家能够在国内搞起一个运动的话，这个运动马上就会像六四一样蔓延向全国，响应的人肯定会非常多。这就是共产党非常紧张的一个原因，当局维稳的矛头就是对准突发事件，就怕某一个突发事件引发全国行动。就像突尼斯那样。

所以我觉得当然也不一定肯定就在这一时期，这一六四时期，因为共产党对六四事情是全力动员，甚至把群众领袖这样的人物，所谓敏感人物吧，都把他们拘起来，弄一帮警察看着你，或者采取把你送到外地这样的措施。不能说这些措施完全没有效果，这些措施确实是把发生运动的苗头压下去了。

但是也不一定非要是发生在六四事情期间，维权运动让越来越多的抗暴发展越来越强烈以后，说不定在什么时间什么地点就像在突尼斯似的，一个小贩自焚就会引起很大的事变。这种事情随时随地都有可能发生。

法广：

您预见今年在中国国外纪念六四会是一个什么样的情况呢？

魏京生：

一方面爱好民主自由的人们，包括民运人士都会去积极组织纪念活动，在各个地方，包括在华盛顿，纽约，巴黎这些大城市，特别是在香港，肯定会举行大的活动。

但是另一方面共产党也没有闲着，他们也在用各种方法破坏六四纪念，他们生怕海外的六四纪念会给国内带来很大的鼓励，于是就有突发事件，所以当局很害怕这些，采取各种各样的方法。

举个例子：华盛顿的六四纪念活动每年都是在中国驻美国大使馆门前举行，但是共产党采取了很多手段，想让纪念六四活动不在大使馆前举行，引到别的地方去搞，这样象征性就没有那样强烈了。为这么一点事情，他们花了很大的功夫，甚至很多以前隐藏的很好的，咱们不说特务吧，就是在民运内部隐藏的很好的这些人现在都跳出来了，坚决要把纪念六四活动从中国大使馆门前拉走。拉到别的地方，而且他们很有钱，提前几个月就在拉人。从这个角度看，共产党确实非常害怕六四这个话题，因为这个话题是那么一场大屠杀，给全中国人民造成很重大的影响，在人民心理上造成和大的影响，你怎么能够躲得过去呢？！我觉得共产党实在是不聪明，躲是躲不过去的，靠封锁是封锁不住的，完全靠镇压总有一天也会失控的。

本报道的原始连接：

http://www.chinese.rfi.fr/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD/20140514-%E9%AD%8F%E4%BA%AC%E7%94%9F%E8%B0%88%E7%BA%AA%E5%BF%B5%E5%85%AD%E5%9B%9B25%E5%91%A8%E5%B9%B4-0

有关录音还存放在：

http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2014/Europe_Special_4juin_14_05_2014_Wei_jingsheng_mixe.mp3