Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A1184-W812

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1184-W812

Release Date: January 20, 2019

发布日：2019年1月20日

Topic: Exclusive Interview with Ciping HUANG: Chinese Should be Able to Enjoy Freedom and Democracy (Published by the November 2018 issue of Chinese European Post)

标题：黄慈萍访谈：也要让中国人享受自由民主(欧华导报2018年11月版首发)

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

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http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2019/report2019-01/HuangCPonChina190120CEPpublishedA1184-W812.htm which contains identical information.

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Chinese European Post (November 2018 issue)

Exclusive Interview with Ciping HUANG: Chinese Should be Able to Enjoy Freedom and Democracy

-- by Hu RUI, Chinese European Post

Ciping HUANG is the Secretary-General of the Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition, Executive Director of the Wei Jingsheng Foundation, and council member and Chairwoman of the Independent Federation of the Chinese Students and Scholars, USA (IFCSS). In 1978, without graduating from high school, she passed the college entrance exam and was admitted to the Department of Modern Physics of the University of Science and Technology of China. She became a classmate of the "talented children class" well known in China. In the summer of 1984, she went to the United States to study. She obtained a master's degree in nonlinear optics from the University of Toledo. After that, she worked in the USA and became a senior optical engineering consultant.

She was the first vice-chair of the Pan Pacific and Southeast Asian Women's Association in Toledo, a member of the University Women's Federation of the USA. In 1989 the June 4th Massacre in Beijing, especially the tragic murder of her college classmate, changed the course of her life. Since then, she has joined the overseas Chinese democracy movement and is committed to promoting the progress of democracy and freedom in China. She has served as the president and council chair of IFCSS, as well as Chairman of its June 4 Humanitarian Aid Committee. In 1999, she served as president of the Global Chinese Student Union. In 1990, she participated in and helped organize the first Chinese political opposition party overseas and was elected as a Liaison Committee member of the Chinese Liberal and Democratic Party. She firmly believes that the premise of democracy and freedom in China was to end the one-party autocratic system in China. This reporter of the Chinese European Post interviewed her at the China Road Symposium in Düsseldorf in the summer of 2018.

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WEI Jingsheng Is a Banner of the Democracy Movement

Hu RUI of the Chinese European Post: Ciping, I am very glad that you have accepted the interview with the Chinese European Post during your busy schedule. (Huang Ciping: I am also very happy.) Why didn't you join the Federation for a Democratic China (FDC) from the beginning?

Ciping HUANG: At that time I felt that the FDC was politically limited and still within the Communist system. The FDC has never developed in the United States, because in the USA, there were already the strong presence of the IFCSS and the Chinese Democratic Alliance (CDA). But I did not join CDA either because I considered that organization also as politically limited. That is why we went on to organize and found the Chinese Liberal and Democratic Party. At that time, we tried to merge with the CDA of Dr. Wang Bingzhang. There were many things going on then. I also had exchanges with Dr. Wang Ce, with the same original intention -- to establish a democratic system, China must have an opposition party. This is an important part of trying to build democracy.

Hu RUI: You wrote a lot of articles in the 1990s that were published in the China News Digest.

Ciping HUANG: In 1989, we established the English version of "China News Digest", with all the content to be in English. During the first ten years of my stay in the USA, I did not speak too much Chinese nor write too many Chinese characters. Our readers were the tens of thousands of Chinese students and scholars from all over the world. At that time, I already had a full-time job. I worked as a volunteer editor for the China News Digest, which was very hard. It was two weeks long in continuous rotation, with one release every day. I had to edit all night long without sleep for these releases. At the end of 1990, IFCSS was invited by the Chair of the Youth Committee of the Supreme Soviet, who was a good friend of Andrei Sakharov, to visit the then Soviet Union. That was when the Soviet Union was in a state of collapse. Both Gorbachev and Yeltsin were there, as the Supreme Soviet tried to change itself from a rubber stamp to a real parliament representing the people. This visit was very interesting. I wrote some short reports published in the English "China News Digest".

Hu RUI: Did not you participate in the merger of the CDA and FDC in 1993?

Ciping HUANG: No. Mainly I was doing the IFCSS work until the end of 1997, when WEI Jingsheng came out. (Hu Rui: You started to work for him from the beginning?) Not yet. I tried to greet him when he had just arrived in the USA, but did not see him initially. In 1998, I participated in the first conference of the Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition. At that time, I was the IFCSS president and represented IFCSS. Many democracy movement organizations participated in this conference, but they did not include IFCSS. I only spoke as a VIP at the conference in congratulation. Then in 2000, when I opposed the USA's preferential trade status for China, I helped WEI Jingsheng to do some work. At the time, I still held a full-time job in Ohio. My home in Ohio is more than 800 kilometers from Washington DC. But at that time, I was young and strong. After finished my work on Friday, I drove to Washington DC. I drove all night long and would just arrive in Washington DC the next morning in time to do something. Sometimes I had to take a day off for some events. I told my boss that the salary was not as important to me as the vacation days. My boss was very sympathetic and supportive to us. Normal Americans people, like the Europeans, truly support democracy and freedom in China. The politicians were more concerned with interests and money. The Americans are very pragmatic and my boss was very good to me. I am very grateful to him. He supported and sympathized with me and let me take extra days off. But I still had to work from Monday to Friday. My boss thought that the Chinese people worked hard like me. But the Chinese employees he recruited later on were not as ideal as he had hoped.

Hu RUI: As a volunteer, to work for democracy and meanwhile hold a full-time job must be very hard?

Ciping HUANG: It was very hard. I had to work full time from 8 am to 6 pm every day, then work on these online news digests all night, as reporter and editor. China News Digest was the first online magazine with tens of thousands of Chinese readers. At that time, it was only available in the English version. From 1999, I started to help WEI Jingsheng. Before that, I used a lot of time to work as the president of IFCSS. The workload and time spent as a volunteer far surpassed my official job. The workload for my job was fixed. Everyday I drank 7-8 cups of coffee. Often I came in late, while my colleagues waited for me and for me to answer questions they might have, etc.

Hu RUI: Let us talk about WEI Jingsheng.

Ciping HUANG: WEI Jingsheng is the mainstay of the overseas democracy movement. I admire him very much, even as now. You cannot find another person who is as smart, as insightful and as determined as he is. His biggest weakness is his English skill, while my weakness is my Chinese skill. So we even had difficulty to communicate. WEI Jingsheng is very proud and often claimed that I am his Chinese student. So I also proudly told him that he is my English student and we are complementary. Later, when I really had difficulty to drive the 800 km distance, I turned my full-time job into consulting. Starting from the year 2000, I helped WEI Jingsheng more regularly. Before that, he also appreciated me very much. But he tried to find someone to help him and never found a suitable one. In fact, even nowadays, I am still work for him as volunteer, instead of being paid. I go to Washington every month to help him for a few days.

Hu RUI: Recently, Radio Free Asia (RFA) had an exclusive interview of him with dialogue. RFA asked him what ideas he had in recent years that could surpass "the Fifth Modernization - Democracy" theory he proposed in the 1970s. WEI Jingsheng said that there is no such kind of breakthrough, and it was just a diplomacy by one person -- himself. I think WEI Jingsheng has been the banner of overseas democracy since he came out until now, but there is no new theory of thought.

Ciping HUANG: That part of the RFA interview you saw was only the first part, and I was also there during the interview. There will be a second part broadcast soon. A very important quality of WEI Jingsheng is that he is irreplaceable. This time I came to Europe also under the glory of his banner. I will be running around Europe, representing WEI Jingsheng, including going to the European Parliament. The most important action of WEI Jingsheng overseas is that he has been able to do things no other democracy activist or even a democracy organization could do. WEI Jingsheng's influence in Western politics is enormous. In the past, Western political circles were affected by the economy and trade of the Chinese Communist regime. They were superficially interested in human rights. Now they truly recognize the evil nature of the Chinese Communist regime. Secondly, they finally started to reflect on past policies. Especially the current Trump administration has paid attention of WEI Jingsheng's opinions and advices. Therefore, recently WEI Jingsheng has spent much more time in the USA and finally his value recognized in the USA. His advice has influence on the US president and several other political figures. I say that he is like the Confucius who traveled around the countries. Now, a country recognizes the importance of his opinions.

Hu RUI: How it is reflected?

Ciping HUANG: The US administration took in and agreed with his opinions and advices. They include economics professor and government economic adviser Peter Navarro. We have known each other for almost 10 years, and he sent two books he wrote to WEI Jingsheng. He had a student about 6 years ago who now is also a professor, with whom we have contact. WEI Jingsheng has a huge influence on Sino-US relations. On the surface, it might be economic, but actually it is political. The current US Secretary of Defense also consulted with him. The diplomat who is in charge of Asian affairs is an expert on China. He was originally a journalist working in China, with an experience of the Chinese guards robbing him of the things he recorded and even hitting him. Later, he quit the reporter job and joined the military. Now, he is in charge of Asian affairs at the White House. He has the deepest understanding of the nature of the Chinese government. In the past, the Chinese police did not bully people like this in the open, or even beat people like that. He also knows WEI Jingsheng very well. On these fronts, Lao Wei is indeed irreplaceable.

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Physicist Who Is Willing to Be an Assistant to WEI Jingsheng

Hey: How did you become an assistant to Wei?

Huang: The cause of my help started in 1999 when the United States considered giving China the permanent Most Favored Nation (MFN) status. WEI strongly opposed it, saying that would be strengthening the Communist regime. At that time, many people, including many democracy activists, believed that this preferential status for China would be very good. In the United Nations, Wang Dan also said this preferential treatment should be given to China. Wei said this is wrong, this will make the Chinese people suffer even more, and even American workers would lose jobs. His opinions were opposed by many Chinese. The big businesses in Europe and the USA were also very friendly with the Communist regime. But Wei insisted on his own point of view. It is not easy to see him not fall as the banner for Chinese democracy in the past 20 years. The suppression he received was not only from the Communist regime, but also from the big businesses in Europe and the USA, as well as some Chinese democracy activists. Too many wanted to have torn up this banner. I believe to have a hero who can be the mainstay is the blessing of our country. I cannot find a second person to be compared with him.

Hu RUI: Your statement made me realize the significance of WEI Jingsheng as the banner of the democratic movement from the essence.

Ciping HUANG: WEI's economic achievement is also monumental. His theory is no less sophisticated than Karl Marx's. Marx's Capital is famous but outdated, but not WEI's. I translated all his theoretical writings. I use all my effort to help him. When he just came abroad, I was only sympathetic to him. I told him, "When you have no way to live, come to me." As long as I have something to eat, you will also have it. Now I am the same, and I will help him with all I could. I want him to be assured. His life in these years is not easy, and I am in the United States, even with retirement savings. I decided to support our Chinese hero. Many people are not aware of the importance of WEI Jingsheng, we owe him for his many years of sacrifice.

Hu RUI: I did not realize that either.

Huang: Many Chinese did not realize the dedication and the contribution of Wei Jingsheng. Now Americans have realized his contribution to the economic theory. Two years ago, the U.S. Business and Industry Council awarded him the "Economic Freedom Award" and particularly stated that they "proudly honored WEI Jingsheng as a champion of economic freedom and exceptional advocate for balanced trade relations between the Chinese and American People." He has been awarded numerous prizes and honors, including many human rights awards, that are enough to be listed on several pages. But for Wei Jingsheng to have won the economic prize is unusual. In 1999, he repeatedly said: People generally believe that if China's economy is good, it will promote the process of democratization. But in fact, if the Chinese economy develops, the Communist regime will be even more oppressive of the people and pose an even greater threat to the international community.

Hu RUI: The more you talk, the better. Let us understand more of WEI Jingsheng. People overseas thought of him as a redneck Robin Hood. They did not know WEI Jingsheng's influence to the Western politicians and entrepreneurs is not just diplomatic, but also economic; about Wei letting them know that the economic development in China is not conducive to democracy.

Ciping HUANG: With all the money they got, the Chinese Communist regime has spread money all over the world. I have heard a lot of WEI Jingsheng talking about this. It is best to let him write it himself. Some of his thoughts were very accurate, like prophecy, knowing early enough even 20 years ahead. For example: about Bo Xilai, he told me years ago that Bo Xilai would be in big trouble later on in his career. Wei attended the first wedding of Bo Xilai. Even at the wedding, he said that this marriage would not last for long. That is because it was a political marriage -- the bride was not pretty but her family had a strong political background. Bo Xilai is handsome, how could he want to marry this kind of wife? The Communist Party deceives the people but does not deceive themselves. For example, when Wei was young, he read the "big reference" (offered only to the high level Communist leaders). How could average Chinese like us ever read these? Therefore, he has an in-depth understanding of the essence of the Communist Party and knows the inside story of the internal struggle of the Communist regime. He said back then that Bo Xilai would be in trouble because he exposes the blades of his sword, while Xi Jinping was the opposite: hiding his blades and only exposing his true self when he got his opportunities. After all, WEI came from that circle and thus knows the roots.

There were more than 100 comments following that exclusive interview of WEI Jingsheng by Radio Free Asia. Most comments were people expressing their admiration of him -- saying that WEI Jingsheng came from a family of high-ranking Communist officials, and if he did not oppose the Communist dictatorship, he would not have to go to jail and would be awarded with money and interests as the other offspring of the Communist leaders. Why does he want to do these things against the Communist regime? People say that those against the Communist regime are "nuts and fools", I guess that could be said to be true. But WEI Jingsheng's anti-communism is completely different. His is greater than ours. He has suffered so much in his life, suffering from illness all over his body, and not able to care about what we the average people are all care about. Indeed, WEI Jingsheng is a banner, sometimes you see him alone on a single horse with a single gun in his hand. Some people asked if we have a team. But overseas, everyone must survive first and get busy for themselves. When people who just came out of China want to participate in the democracy movement, I always advice them to take care of themselves first. I also think that it is a "foolish thing" to work for the pro-democracy, as if I retreat back I could so much better be relaxed and enjoy my own life. Think of WEI Jingsheng: he is also a human being knowing all the enjoyment of life. As a matter of fact, everyone wants a family and has the desire to enjoy life.

Hu RUI: He spent 18 years in prisons and read a lot of books.

Ciping HUANG: No so. There was often nothing for him to read in jails. However, he read many books before his jail time. People say that Wei is a junior high school student who did not even graduate. That was caused by the Cultural Revolution. His ability to learn is very strong, with his intuition and his ability to comprehend. One rarely sees that kind of person. (RUI: How is his English now?) Not very good. He can make simple conversations, such as when he goes to hunt with American friends; then there are no communication difficulties between them.

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Dare to Say that the Emperor Did Not Wear Pants but Making Small Errors of His Own

Hu RUI: The US Congress once allocated two million dollars for Overseas Chinese Democracy Movement. But Wei Jingsheng did not want it. Was it because of his stand on the MFN status to China?

Ciping HUANG: No, it is because he could not then criticize the US policy about China, and he does not want his mouth to be sealed. This was very controversial within the Chinese democracy movement. Some people said: Look, so much money, we should take it first! But if just for the sake of money, WEI Jingsheng could get more from the Communist regime if he cooperated with them. Even I told him, your life worth at least several millions. (Rui: Is there such a threat?) Yes, there always is, which is also one of the reasons why he did not come to Europe this time. Recently, Wang Jian died. Is it not hard to imagine he was not that stupid to jump on that wall and fall to his own death? As far as I know, even if he does not die like this, he will die in other ways.

Hu RUI: Some people think that the WEI is nervous.

Ciping HUANG: No, the threat does exist and it is real. I cannot talk about a lot of things now, but just one. I am not afraid either, everyone will die in the end. In the past 20 years, we would usually drive to New York after we finished the June 4th commemoration event in Washington DC. Until a few years ago, we often found that our vehicle had a flat tire or was without electricity to start, right before we were to drive to New York. Why is it like this? It may be coincidental once or twice. But it is not coincidental if it happens many times. One year WEI Jingsheng went to Canada, and the security police there told him that he should not go, as the assassination team had already entered. Ji Shengde, the sons of Ji Pengfei (higher rank Communist official who once was the Minister of Foreign Affairs), and Jiang Zemin were in conflict to each other and wanted to stir up some international events. But Jiang Zemin discovered it and Ji Shengde was sentenced to death (later commuted to life sentence). His father was 90 years old and dying, yet unable to see him. When Ji Shengde was young, he was even a friend to Wei. So WEI Jingsheng could be without danger? This year, we learnt that the assassination team from China is in Europe. Then Wang Jian died, which made me a little relieved. In fact, the object of assassination may not necessarily have been Wang Jian.

Hu RUI: What assassinations happened in the United States?

Ciping HUANG: Supposedly Harry Wu died in the Caribbean, where you can have someone killed with some money. Only the United States is safe. However, Li Zhisui, Mao Zedong's doctor, might be assassinated. Sometimes it seems that Wei Jingsheng says something without too much thought, but later on proves to be true, such as when he predicted that LI would die soon. The reason is that the book Li was working on has not published, yet there were already advertisements for that book. In this regard, I admire WEI Jingsheng.

Hu RUI: How is it that the Nobel Peace Prize has yet to be awarded to him?

Ciping HUANG: This is very similar to that two million dollars issue. For example, when WEI Jingsheng just arrived in Sweden, he criticized the Swedish government for spending millions each year to train the police and judges in China, in the name of helping the establishment of the rule of law. But in fact, the Communist regime understands the rule of law, but does not follow even their own law except to take advantage of these laws. WEI Jingsheng's criticism of these Western countries such as Sweden and Norway, made officials there very upset. He knows that therefore he will lose many chances for awards, but to WEI Jingsheng, it is more important to stop those countries helping the Communist regime to train the police in China than to get some awards. In addition, he will never preach some theory (by LIU Xiaobo) of wishing the West to colonize China for 300-years, and I cannot accept this kind of saying either. This theory made the Westerners feel really cool, as if the Westerners are smarter and better than Chinese. Therefore, it is no surprise that the one who advocates Westerners to colonize China for 300 years can get the Nobel Peace Prize. Is it not? The great thing of WEI Jingsheng is that he is not afraid of offending people and telling the truth. He dares to tell the emperor that he did not wear his pants. But the Chinese dictators and the western politicians do not want to hear that. If you say that their new clothes are so beautiful, then they will be very happy. This is a common weakness of people.

Hu RUI: According to reports, WEI Jingsheng went to American universities to talk about Chinese history. Is he familiar with Chinese history?

Huang: More than familiar! Dr. CHEN Xingyu and WEI Jingsheng are two people in the overseas Chinese democracy movement who are most familiar with Chinese history, while Dr. QIAN Yuejun is more familiar with foreign history. WEI Jingsheng read history and never forgot, and even now his memory is also exceptionally outstanding. But he only remembers what he wants to remember, and does not remember other things. For example, if he tried to boil a pot of water, he might forget it, even if it was only 10 minutes ago. He is kind of unwilling to remember, with selective memory.

Hu RUI: When Lao Wei was interviewed by Voice of America, he said that Jiangxi's robbing of coffins was unscrupulousness by Xi Jinping's faction, and it was slaves showing their loyalty to the master.

Ciping HUANG: WEI also said, how can you prohibit the people from being buried, yet build such a grand grave monument for Xi Zhongxun (i.e. Xi Jinping's father)? Xi Jinping is a standard dictator. Some people question if the Cultural Revolution would reappear in China. WEI Jingsheng said that now it is already worse than the Cultural Revolution. You see, the police beat people, even if they are women and old men. A video shows an old man asked for directions, and the Chinese police just slapped him as a response. In the United States, it is not a problem to ask the police for directions. Back during the Cultural Revolution time, it was only the young Red Guards who rebelled, but now it is the Chinese police illegally beating people in broad daylight - now it is worse than the Cultural Revolution time in China.

Hu RUI: Did WEI Jingsheng attend the Berlin Conference in 2006? That was a quite big conference in the history of overseas democracy movements.

Ciping HUANG: Yes, there were quite a few people who attended, but I do not know the results. If you have money, you can get it done, including in Europe, where you could choose summer and enjoy tourism. WEI Jingsheng thinks winter is the best time for conferences, so the main focus could only be talking during the conferences. I would make compromises. WEI Jingsheng tends to do practical things, to produce results and get milestone effects. When the Federation for Democratic China was established, there were a lot of people present. During the Consolidation Conference in Washington DC in 1993, there were also a lot of people. I would not go to these conferences. In 1993, a lot of people attended the Consolidation Conference and had a negative result instead. It is very important to accomplish something instead. In recent years, we have held events in the US Congress every year, with one hundred people to attend. We have greatly impacted the American politic circle. The most important thing is to get the results we wanted. Years ago, many of our friends in Europe went to Geneva with us to participate in the human rights activities within the United Nations. Although there were not many people, nor a great effect, it was very important for the Chinese to be there, including our protests. When we do more, we are not just influencing the world, but more importantly, we reduce the CCP pressure on the Chinese people, especially political prisoners, so it is very meaningful for us the overseas Chinese to do these things.

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Chinese Society Overseas

Hu RUI: What does WEI Jingsheng think about GUO Wengui?

Ciping HUANG: WEI has already set his tone at the beginning. For more than one year now, from the rise of GUO Wengui until now, there are people who support him, there are people who against him, there are people who have tried to smash him. Some people are very abnormal, who would shift from extremely supportive of him to extremely against him. Some people are normal and understandable, who wake up. WEI has always been consistent on this issue. First, he expressed that he supports GUO Wengui braking news that exposes the Communist regime. But we do not agree with a lot of GUO's conduct, including the ways he got his wealth. WEI Jingsheng said that we are in full support of GUO publicizing news that exposes the ugly face of the Communist regime in China. This is kind of like playing chess. There are some so-called democracy activists who said that Guo Wengui split the Chinese democracy movement. For example, GAO Zhan, the Communist spy in the United States who purposefully joined the democracy movement when she got in trouble (with the FBI). She was a person working for the Chinese government and invited to the Chinese embassy in the USA all the time, yet she came to attend our activities which really insulted and defiled us. Later, she claimed to be a Christian and gave birth to two more children, in order to avoid jail time. In the democratic movement, these people who have high-pitched tone are not necessarily to be true democracy activists. I have noticed many times that when there are fights within the democracy movement, when both sides are agents really working for the Chinese government who provoke fights and have chaos in our movement as their purpose. I would be very upset for that. WEI Jingsheng is much calmer, treating these kinds of agents as the hooligans on the streets of Beijing.

Hu RUI: Some people say that Wei often said that this is an agent, and that is an agent of the Communist regime.

Ciping HUANG: Indeed, there are a lot of agents within the democracy movement, and we do have evidence of some people. Why has the democracy movement come to such a difficult point? If we got the archives of the Chinese Communist regime, we will find it out. Think about it: there were one third of these people in East Germany who were informants, even reports about Walesa and Havel. The Chinese Communist Party is even more shameless than the Communist Parties in Eastern Europe. Anyone who returns to China has to drink tea (demanded by the secret police), is it almost all? I resolutely did not sign a paper of a guarantee to meet when they demanded it in the past, which made me unable to return to China. I know that most people did sign that paper. Finally, even when my father was dying on his deathbed, they would not let me to see him. The shamelessness of the Communist regime is to use humanity to harass everyone. I understand the people who had to sign that paper, but I am determined not to sign, and there are very few people who did not sign. If there were one-third of people within the democracy movement of Eastern Europe who were informants, then there would be at least that percentage of informants within Chinese democracy movement. Wei Jingsheng knows a lot about these. This time he cannot come to Europe, and I cannot explain that to you, I should not.

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Clear Spring in the Desert

Hu RUI: How did you get to know Mrs. Lois Wheeler Snow?

Ciping HUANG: In Geneva, Switzerland. She lived in a small town near Geneva and used to go to Beijing every year. Later, we also visited her every year. She was in an alone and dilemma kind of situation: On one hand, she and her husband were the guests of the Communist regime. When Mr. Edgar Snow was seriously ill, Chinese premier Zhou Enlai sent a medical team to treat him. They invited Mrs. Snow go to Beijing every year. Half of Mr. Snow's ashes are buried by the Lake of Weiming in Peking University. Because of the association with her, many Chinese do not understand WEI Jingsheng. In fact, Wei is a person full of humanity. After 1989, Mrs. Snow rebelled against the Communist regime in China with her children. She also protested and wrote articles about it. WEI Jingsheng encouraged her. Once we took a group of more than a dozen Overseas Chinese Democracy Coalition friends to visit Mrs. Snow. Xiang Lin said: In the past these people were our opposites, how come now we are the guests at her home? Mrs. Snow's son Chris was born in the same year as WEI in 1950. Chris passed away a few years ago. Mrs. Snow treated WEI as her son. WEI talks sweetly to the old lady to please her. I often sigh, the others imagine him as a man made of steel without humanity. In fact, he is a person I have ever seen with most humanity. Seeing through my own eyes, I have often been touched, many times.

Hu RUI: Did not WEI Jingsheng come to Europe in June this year?

Ciping HUANG: He did not, for the same reason. Think of that: he was invited by the European Parliament, the European Union! The Belgian ambassador personally made a plea in his favor, yet he could not come over. (RUI: So you represented him on the stage?) Yes, I represented him on his behalf. I told him that one day, I may die on his behalf too. Ha ha ha ha. Yes, it is easier for me to communicate with Westerners.

Hu RUI: Go back to yourself. You said that you have not spoken Chinese and written Chinese for many years, but your recent articles published in our Chinese European Post, are very well written.

Ciping HUANG: Is it so? That was trying to fit to the taste of your editor-in-chief QIAN Yuejun. WEI Jingsheng often criticized me for being a literary youth who talked about all the beautiful scenery and moods of love. But your Chinese European Post and Dr. Qian's flavor are like that.

Hu RUI: Actually, the flavor of our newspapers is also diverse. There are too many of beautiful scenery and moods of love, but there are also articles by PENG Xiaoming.

Ciping HUANG: That is true. Generally speaking, Dr. Qian prefers this literature kind, so I write this kind to be published in your newspaper. (RUI: You wrote a lot of poems before?) It is Dr. Qian that made me to write that way.

RUI: You said that you are very pessimistic. In fact, you are also very optimistic, such as you wrote of the spring in the desert.

Ciping HUANG: But that is also very painful. It takes thousands of years for that spring water to arrive. The water in the desert originated not far away from that spring. But it was squeezed from the cracks of the rocks. It is difficult. (RUI: Actually, there is also hope.) Of course there is hope.

Hu RUI: From 2008 to the present, the Wei Jingsheng Foundation presented its prizes, with you using poems to make dedications.

Ciping HUANG: I am from a family of centuries-old intellectuals. My earliest ancestor was the Minister of Works in the Song Dynasty. I do not know whom he had offended. He fled to Huangyan in Zhejiang Province and even changed his family name. Later on, our family survived as an intellectual family. All the generations of men make good calligraphy, until our generation. The hundreds of years of hereditary do matter, not necessarily because how hard I worked, but because of my luck to be born in such a family. Although my education was also affected by the Cultural Revolution. I told WEI Jingsheng that if some people mocked him for not finishing junior high school, then he could say that HUANG Ciping even did not graduate from her elementary school, but is still a child prodigy. I did not graduate from high school, I like poetry, I am sort of a literature youth, who is more pessimistic and easy to be sad and sentimental. People said that you already have everything, why do you get sad and sentimental? Ha ha, that is life.

Hu RUI: Your dedication in 2016 was "The wind blows, the river freezes. The hero fights, knowing he will never return!", how tragic and heroic.

Ciping HUANG: In 2012, it was "You died before winning the battle, which made all the heroes cry" to the awardee WANG Donghai, who passed away. In 2011, awardee LIU Di also passed away. (RUI: 2017 to Tang Jingling.) All the laureates are/were in Chinese jails. Liu Di and Wang Donghai died. Liu Xianbin and Huang Qi of Sichuan are still being held in jails. Tang Jingling's award should be officially presented on December 10 this year on Human Rights Day in Washington, USA. His family is in California, and should receive the award on his behalf.

Hu RUI: Who should it be most important to get into the history of the overseas Chinese democracy movement?

Ciping HUANG: Dr. WANG Bingzhang, who founded overseas democracy movement. At that time, he had the opportunity of the right people, the right time, and the right place, as well as the support of Chiang Ching-kuo, which is impossible now. They all are afraid of the Chinese Communist regime.

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Your History and Your Culture

Hu RUI: What are the top three events that you think should be talked about in the history of overseas democracy movements?

Ciping HUANG: One is the protests against the June 4th Massacre. This is very important. The second is the lobbying of the international community. There were also a lot of work done back then in Germany. Dr. QIAN Yuejun did a lot. The Association of Chinese Students and Scientists in Germany, Independent Federation of Chinese Students and Scholars, USA (IFCSS), and myself have all done a lot. Later on, many people withdrew, but many people also insisted and stayed, and including myself have been helping WEI Jingsheng, and Dr. QIAN Yuejun publishes Chinese European Post. If you look at the people of the democracy movement, some of them simply quit, and some have degenerated and changed, even become spokesmen of the Communist regime. The third is to convey information and awaken people inside of China through the freedom overseas.

I live in the United States well, in the way like a fish in the water. China is my motherland, but with terrible environment. I went to China for business before, and I cannot tolerate a lot. There were several times I went to fight with people because the unfair actions they had. I have a very good time in the United States. I am a middle class who is very comfortable and have everything I need. But I want to be in China, because I truly want to help the people there. Some people may express across the line, saying that the Chinese are not worth helping. But if you let me choose the country I want to live for myself, I choose the United States. But I want to do things for China and help the people there. WEI Jingsheng said that when he returns to China, there will not be too many people going back with him. I said, I will go with you, I want to help you.

Hu RUI: Are you slowly reading some Chinese? (HUANG: more English.) You can write a memoir.

Ciping HUANG: I do write a little on and off. I published a few articles on the Internet, including about Ning Bo (the prodigy child who is my college classmate) and the IFCSS, also my experience as a hacker. When I returned to China, I was detained. Those secret police told me, look at DING Jian, who was also a member of IFCSS. But he became the 67th richest man in China. He also participated in the election campaign of IFCSS. After returned China, he chose Xu Gehui, the beautiful anchorwoman of Phoenix TV to be his wife. I was no worse than him. But I told them, Ding Jian made a firewall for you, but I will not even if I have to starve to death. If I want to live a better life, I will not do these things long ago. WEI Jingsheng is the same. (RUI: Is WEI writing a memoir?) There are parts he wrote years ago that are in our safe. I wrote now and then, piece by piece, a little more than ten chapters. I carefully sorted out his writings. I do not have his old photos, but have preserved everything since I have been with him.

Hu RUI: WEI Jingsheng was exclusively granted permission to smoke on important occasions. Where else besides with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd of Australia?

Ciping HUANG: More than that! There was also Jean-Marc Ayrault, the mayor of Nantes, France, who presided over the "World Democracy Forum". Later, he became the French Foreign Affair minister and Prime Minister of France. He took an ashtray to WEI Jingsheng and said that we have not allowed anyone smoking here for many years, but now is an exception -- that is because the city government building is a wooden structure. I said to WEI not to smoke because of the wood structure. But he said that it would be disrespectful if he refused to do so.

Hu RUI: I am very happy that you accepted our interview. Please tell the readers of the Chinese European Post something.

Ciping HUANG: The Chinese European Post is a very good newspaper, with different layers and different angles of politics, culture, economy, etc. It is full of richness and colors. As people who live on this world, we must hold the bottom line of our moral conscience. Actually I do not like politics at all, I prefer science, and am especially interested in mathematics and physics. As a Chinese who lives in a free country, I appreciate freedom and would like to share freedom with the people in China. I think we have to do something for it for our people. Once the Chinese middle class supported the Chinese government and even lacked sympathy to the misery of the "low-end population". But now look at the recent P2P incident, it is really the Communist regime robbing you, to put your money into their pockets. The bureaucratic privileged class in China is not just suppressing the low-end population. As a Chinese, we have to cry out for them and help them. I also hope that we will work together to let all Chinese enjoy the right of democracy and freedom.

Hu RUI: Ok, thank you for accepting the interview with the Chinese European Post.

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(According to the interviews recorded on August 18, 2018, in Düsseldorf, Germany. The interviewee has examined and approved this interview transcript.)

Original prints of this report:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2019/newsletters2019-1/CEP-2018-11-P20-s.pdf

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2019/newsletters2019-1/CEP-2018-11-P21-s.pdf

Related photos:

1. HUANG Ciping on Rhine:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2019/newsletters2019-1/HuangCP181015inLoreLey-cc.jpg

2. Calligraphy of the Wei Jingsheng Foundation by Dr. QIAN Yuejun of CEP:

http://weijingsheng.org/wjs/WJSF1707logo-final-10.jpg

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中文版

Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A1184-W812

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1184-W812

Release Date: January 20, 2019

发布日：2019年1月20日

Topic: Exclusive Interview with Ciping HUANG: Chinese Should be Able to Enjoy Freedom and Democracy (Published by the November 2018 issue of Chinese European Post)

标题：黄慈萍访谈：也要让中国人享受自由民主(欧华导报2018年11月版首发)

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问：

http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2019/report2019-01/HuangCPonChina190120CEPpublishedA1184-W812.htm

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欧华导报2018年11期首发

黄慈萍访谈：也要让中国人享受自由民主

-- 芮虎

黄慈萍，中国民主运动海外联席会议秘书长，魏京生基金会执行主任，全美学自联理事兼人权委员会主席。1978年高中未毕业就考上中国科学技术大学近代物理系，成为当时全国关注的中国科大天才少年班的同学。1984年夏赴美国留学，在托利多大学攻读非线性光学获硕士学位，后留美国工作，成为资深光学工程顾问。

她曾是联合国非政府组织之一的太平洋与东南亚妇女联合会在托利多的第一副主席，美国大学妇女联合会成员。1989年北京“六四”屠杀、尤其她的同学被害，改变了她的生命历程。自此以后投身大陆海外民运，以推动中国民主与自由之进程为己任。曾任全美中国学生学者自治联合会主席、理事会主席及六四人道救援会主席。1999年任全球学联主席。1990年参与了海外的首次组党活动，并在当时所创建的中国自由民主党任中央联络委员会委员。她坚信，民主与自由中国的前提是结束一党专制的政治体系。2018年夏在杜塞多夫中国之路研讨会上，《欧华导报》记者对她做了访谈。

__ __ __

魏京生是民运的一杆旗帜

《欧华导报》芮虎：慈萍，很高兴你在百忙之中接受《欧华导报》采访。（黄慈萍：我也很高兴。）为何你从一开始就未参加民阵？

黄慈萍：自己觉得民阵不够彻底，是体制内的。民阵在美国从来没有发展起来，因为美国学自联、民联的力量都比较强。我也没参加民联，认为民联也不够，所以我们要去搞自民党。成立了自民党，当时想和王炳章的民联合并。其中有很多故事，跟王策也有互动，初衷是一样的，中国要建立民主制度，必须要有一个反对党。这是试图建立民主的重要部分。

芮：你在九十年代写了很多文章刊登在美国的《华夏文摘》上。

黄：1989年我们成立了英文版《华夏文摘》，China news digest，内容全是英文。我在美国待的前十年间，没讲过几句中文，没写过几个汉字。我们的读者对象是分布在全世界的几万名中国留学生。当时我已经有全职工作，做文摘编辑是业余的，很辛苦。两个礼拜连轴转，每天出一期，要通宵编，才编得完。1990年底全美学自联受苏联最高苏维埃青年委员会主席（是萨哈罗夫的好朋友）邀请，去访问苏联，当时苏联正在崩溃之中。戈尔巴乔夫，叶利钦都在那里，最高苏维埃试图从橡皮图章变成一个真正的人民议会。这次访问很有意思。我写了些短文在英文的《华夏文摘》里。

芮：1993年你也没有参加民联民阵合并大会？

黄：没有。主要是做学自联的事，直到97年底老魏出来。（芮：开始就给他做助手？）还没有。他刚出来时去看过他，第一次没看到。1998年他组织的第一次联席会议我去参加了。当时我是全美学自联主席，代表学自联。当时有许多民运组织参加了这个会议，但不包括全美学自联，我只是作为贵宾在会上讲话。然后2000年，在反对美国给中国优惠国待遇时，我帮老魏去做了一些事情。那时我在俄亥俄还有全职工作，俄亥俄离华盛顿800多公里。那时年轻力壮，星期五下班后，就开车去华盛顿。开车一个晚上，刚好第二天赶到华盛顿，做一些事情。有时要请一天假。我给老板说，工资不要紧，但我要假。老板很同情和支持我们的事情。美国人，欧洲人，他们是真心支持中国的民主自由。和政客不一样，政客是带着钱财的利益考量。美国人民非常务实，老板很好，我非常感谢他，他支持、同情我，给我额外假期。但是从星期一到星期五我还得上班。老板以为中国人都像我这么勤劳刻苦努力，但后来他招的中国人员工都不理想。

芮：有全职工作，业余搞民运，很辛苦吧？

黄：挺辛苦。全职工作从早上8点到晚上6点。夜里就搞网上文摘，当记者和编辑。《华夏文摘》是第一个有几万中国读者的网络杂志，那时只有英文版。帮老魏应该是从1999年开始的，因为之前我做全美学自联主席，用了很多时间。我的业余工作负荷远远超过上班工作。上班只是按合同，我每天要喝7-8杯咖啡。常常迟到，同事就会等我，有什么问题就会问我。

芮：谈谈老魏吧。

黄：魏京生是海外民运的中流砥柱，我这点非常佩服他，至今也佩服，找不到第二个有他这样聪明、这样有洞察力、这样的决心。他最大弱项是英文不行，而我的弱项是中文不行。所以我们沟通都困难。老魏常常很得意，说我是他的中文学生。我也很得意地告诉他，他是我的英文学生，我们互补。后来我两边跑吃不消，就把全职工作变成咨询工作，大概从2000年开始帮老魏。以前老魏也非常赏识我，试图找别人帮他，但都不合适。事实上至今我都是业余为他做，不是专业做。我每个月去华盛顿几天帮他。

芮：前不久自由亚洲电台和他对话，问他近年来有什么思想可以突破他在70年代提出的第五个现代化理论。老魏说没有什么突破，只是一个人的外交。我觉得，老魏从出来到现在，是海外民运的旗帜，但没有新的思想理论。

黄：那次访谈只是第一部分，我也在。还有第二部分。老魏很重要的一条是不可替代的。这次我来欧洲，也是在老魏的光辉之下。我会在全欧洲跑一圈，是代表老魏的，还要去欧洲议会。老魏在海外最重要的是，做了一件任何民运人士甚至集体都没能做到的事。老魏在西方政界的影响力非常大。过去西方政界受到中共经济贸易影响，对人权他们只是做表面文章，现在他们真正认识到中国政府的罪恶性。第二，他们终于有所反思。尤其是现在的特朗普政府，对老魏非常重视。所以老魏在美国待的时间多，终于他在美国得到重视，他对美国总统以及另几个政要都有影响。我说他是孔老夫子周游列国，终于有一个国家对他的意见产生重视了。

芮：体现在哪里？

黄：他说的话美国政府听，包括经济学教授、政府经济顾问彼特·纳瓦罗，我们彼此知道10年了，彼特写了两本书专门送给老魏。6年前他有个学生，现在也是教授，跟我们联系很多。老魏对中美关系有巨大影响，表面上看是经济方面，实际上是政治方面。美国现任国防部长也咨询过老魏的意见。管亚洲事务的外交官员是个中国通，原先在中国当记者，结果中国警卫把他记录的东西抢来抹掉，还把他揍了一顿。后来他不当记者，去参军。现在，他到白宫主管亚洲事务。他对中共政府的本质理解最深。过去，中国警察还不至于这样赤裸裸地欺压百姓，还揍人。他也非常了解老魏。在这些问题上，老魏确实是不可替代的。

__ __ __

物理学者愿做魏京生助手

芮：你是如何成为老魏助手的？

黄：1999年我帮他的起因是，美国考虑给中国永久最优惠国待遇，老魏强烈反对，说你们这样做是养肥了中共。当时很多人、包括不少民运人士都认为给中国优惠国很好，王丹也跑到联合国去说应该给中国优惠国待遇。魏京生说不对，这样会让中国老百姓更加受苦，连美国工人都要失业。他的意见遭到很多中国民运人士反对。欧美的大资本家都跟中共很友好。但老魏坚持自己的观点，这20年来旗帜不倒，是非常不容易的。他受到的打压不只来自中共，还有欧美的资本家和中国民运人士。也有人要倒这杆旗帜，我说，有这样一个中流砥柱的英雄是我们国家的福气，找不到第二个人可以和他相比的。

芮：你这样讲，让我从本质上认识了老魏作为民运旗帜的意义。

黄：老魏在经济上的建树也非常大，他的理论一点也不比马克思的差。《资本论》很有名，但过时了。老魏的阐述都是我翻译的，我帮老魏不遗余力。他刚出来的时候，我是带有同情心的，我对他说，哪一天你没有饭吃了，到我这儿来。只要我有吃的，你也有。现在我也是这样，倾其所有帮助他，我要他放心。他这些年生活非常不容易，而我在美国如鱼得水，有丰厚的养老金。我决定支持中国这位英雄。很多人没有意识到老魏的重要，对不起他这么多年的付出。

芮：我也没有意识到。

黄：老魏的奉献许多中国人没有意识到，美国人意识到了他在经济理论上的贡献。两年前他以“经济自由的冠军和平衡贸易关系的独一无二创导者”而荣获美国商会的经济奖。他得奖无数，包括人权奖，这样奖那样奖可以拉好几页单子。而老魏获了经济奖不同寻常。1999年他反复讲：人们一般认为，中国经济好了就会促进民主化进程。其实如果经济发展了，中共会更加欺压人民，对国际社会造成更大威胁。

芮：你谈得越多越好。让我们更理解老魏。海外认为老魏是草莽英雄。他不仅仅在外交上，还在经济上对西方政治家、企业家有影响，让他们知道中国经济发展并不利于民主。

黄：中共有钱了，全世界大撒币。这一条我听过老魏谈很多事情，最好让他自己写。有的东西非常有前瞻性。我自己原来也自以为聪明，他的聪明却具有前瞻性。20年前就知道后来会发生什么。比如关于薄熙来，他就给我说，薄熙来以后要倒霉。他参加过薄熙来的第一次婚礼，他那时就说，这个婚姻长不了，是政治婚姻，因为老婆很难看，但家里有背景。薄熙来英俊，怎么会娶这样的老婆？共产党欺骗百姓，但不欺骗自己。比如老魏小时候就可以看到《大参考》，我们平民百姓哪里可以看到？所以他对共产党具有本质的了解，知道中共的内斗内幕。他那时说，薄熙来会倒霉，你看他锋芒毕露，而习近平则相反，不露山水。真正要现真容时他才出手。老魏毕竟是这个圈子里的，知根知底。

自由亚洲电台对老魏专访之一后面有100 多条评语，其中点击最高的是人家佩服他，说你们都是高干出身，如果不对着干就不会去蹲监狱，而是吃香喝辣的。为什么做这些事？人家说你们这些反共是疯子傻子，我承认。魏京生反共就完全不一样。他的反共比我们都伟大。他一生吃了那么多苦，患了一身病，不在乎我们常人所在乎的东西。老魏确实是一面旗帜，单枪匹马。有人问你有没有一个团队。在海外，首先要生存，要为自己忙。从国内出来的人想参加民运，我告诉他们，首先把自己料理好吧。我自己也想，干民运确实是干傻事，我退一步就海阔天空。想想老魏也是这样，其实每人都想要家庭，有享受生活的欲望。

芮：他在监狱里前后待了18年，读了很多书。

黄：没有，里面常常没有书读。不过他以前读了许多书。人们说老魏是个初中生，没毕业，是文革造成的。他学习能力非常强，他的直觉，他的领悟能力，很少见到。（芮：他现在英文怎样？）不怎么样。简单的对话可以，比如去打猎，和美国朋友一起，没有交流困难。

__ __ __

敢说皇帝没穿裤子却不计小节

芮：那次，美国国会拨出两百万美元。魏京生不要了，是因为最惠国待遇吗？

黄：不是，是要求不能批评美国对华政策，有条件的封口费。此事在民运中分歧很大。有人说你先把钱拿下再说，这么多钱哪！你想，如果老魏想要钱，中共会给他两百万都不止吧。我对他说，你这条命可以卖几百万吧？（芮：有这方面的威胁吗？）有，从来都有，这也是他这次不来欧洲的原因之一。最近王健死，这种年纪的人跳墙摔死，有这么笨吗？据我所知，他即使不是这样死，也会以别的方式死。

芮：有人认为老魏是神经质。

黄：不是，威胁确实存在，实实在在的。很多东西现在不能讲，只能讲一次。我也是不怕，人总有一死。近20年来，我们基本每年在华盛顿办完六四纪念活动后，就要开车去纽约。直到几年前，常常要开车时发现，不是轮胎爆就是没电了。为什么这样？一次两次是偶然，发生了很多次就不是偶然的。有一年老魏去加拿大，加拿大警方告诉他不能去，说暗杀队伍已经进去了。那次姬鹏飞的儿子姬胜德和江泽民闹不好了，想弄点国际事件。被江泽民发现，姬胜德被判无期。他的老头子90岁要死了，都不让他见。姬胜德小时候还是老魏的发小。你看，老魏怎么会没有危险呢？今年有消息说，中国的暗杀队伍就在欧洲。王健死了，我松了口气，其实，暗杀对象不一定就是王健。

芮：在美国发生了哪些暗杀事件？

黄：吴宏达是在加勒比海，那里随便给点钱就能把人弄死。只有美国是安全的。不过，老毛的医生李志绥是可能被暗杀的。老魏当时就说，这个人估计要死了。老魏随口说的都很有道理，说李志绥的书还没有出，就出广告了，必死无疑。我很佩服老魏。

芮：诺贝尔和平奖怎么一直没有颁发给他？

黄：这与老魏拿不到两百万很相似。例如老魏一到瑞典就批评瑞典政府，说他们每年拿几千万美元去培养中国警察和法官，美其名曰帮助建立法制，而中共是了解法制的，只是钻法制空子。他这样批评瑞典和挪威等西方国家，那里的官员非常不爽。他知道会失去许多获奖机会，但对老魏而言，更重要的是让那些国家停止帮助共产党培养警察。此外，他不会去鼓吹300年殖民地，我也不能接受。西方人听了确实很爽，好像西方人比中国人聪明。所以，说300年殖民地可以获诺贝尔和平奖。是不是？而老魏的卓越之处就是不怕得罪人，说出真话。对于皇帝，说他没穿裤子，中国的独裁者和西方的政客听了就不高兴；你如果说他的新衣服真漂亮，他就高兴了。这是人的共有弱点。

芮：据报道，老魏去美国大学讲中国历史，他对中国历史熟悉吗？

黄：岂止！陈兴宇，魏京生，他们两个人在海外民运中最熟悉中国历史，钱跃君更熟悉外国历史。老魏的历史知识过目不忘，现在他的记忆力也非常优秀。只记他想记的事，别的事就不记了，比如烧一壶水就忘了，10分钟前的事都不记得。不愿意记忆，选择性记忆。

芮：老魏接受美国之音采访时说，江西抢棺材是习近平派系肆无忌惮，是奴才对主子献忠。

黄：他还说，你们怎么会禁止百姓棺葬，而习仲勋的坟墓却修建得那么宏大。习近平是标准的独裁者。有人问，文革是不是会重现，他说现在比文革更糟糕。你看，警察打人，打妇女老头。老头问路，警察一巴掌把老头打倒。在美国，向警察问路是理所当然的事。当年是红卫兵造反，而现在警察非法打人，光天化日之下，比文革更糟糕。

芮：2006年的柏林会议老魏去了？那次会在海外民运史上规模还是很大的。

黄：是的，人来了不少，但结果什么不知道。有钱就好弄，包括在欧洲，总选夏天，夏天可以来旅游。老魏说开会冬天最好，主要为了谈事情。我比较折中，老魏倾向于做实事，是否有成果，产生里程碑式的效果。民阵成立时声势很大，华盛顿合并大会人也很多，我都不去。1993年华盛顿那次也去了很多人，出了负面结果。能做出事情这很重要，这些年我们每年在美国国会举办活动，都有上百人参加。对美国政界的影响还是很大，最重要是看结果。当年欧洲很多朋友去日内瓦参加联合国人权活动，虽然人不多，也没有什么巨大效应，但是中国人在那里，就很重要。包括我们去抗议，我们多做一份，不仅是世界影响，更重要是给中国老百姓、尤其给政治犯减少一分压力，所以我们海外的中国人做这些事是很有意义的。

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海外华人社会

芮：老魏对郭文贵怎样看？

黄：他早就定了调的。这一年多来，从郭文贵的兴起到现在，挺郭，反郭，砸郭，有的人很不正常，从极端挺郭到极端反郭。有的人是正常的，醒悟过来可以理解。老魏一直对里对外都一致。他首先说，郭文贵爆料我们支持，但是郭文贵有许多表现，我们不认同，他的起家经历我们是没法给他站在一起的。老魏说，郭文贵爆料，把中共的丑恶面目暴露，我们坚决支持。有点博弈味道，有所谓民运的人说，郭文贵让民运分裂。比如美国的中共间谍高瞻，自己有麻烦了，就说自己是民运的。原来她是去大使馆，后来声称是民运，其实是把我们侮辱、玷污了，后来成了基督徒，生了两个孩子，不过为了不进监狱。民运队伍里，调子叫得高，并不一定是真民运。我注意到很多次，两边都有五毛互相打架，为了挑起民运内斗，唯恐天下不乱。老魏非常淡定，说那些五毛像北京街头的小流氓，起哄。

芮：有人说老魏常说这是特务，那是特务。

黄：在民运队伍中，特务确实非常多，有的人确实有证据。民运为什么到了这个地步，要去中共的档案馆看看，你想，东德当年三分之一人是线人，连瓦文萨和哈维尔都被爆出问题，中共比东欧共产党还要无耻。所有回国的人都有请喝茶，差不多吧？我当年就是坚决不签保证书，造成我至今不能回国。我知道，大多数人做不到。我最终都没有见到我爸爸，哪怕我爸爸在病床上临终之时。中共的无耻，就是用人性来要挟你，签了的人我也理解，但我坚决不签，不签的人是极少的。东欧的线人有三分之一，中共线人至少也有这么多。老魏知道很多，这次他不能来，我不能解释，不能说。

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沙漠的清泉

芮：你们是如何认识斯诺夫人的？

黄：在日内瓦，她住在日内瓦附近的小城，曾经每年去北京。后来我们也每年去看望她，她很孤独，处于两个不解的情况：一方面，她和先生作为中共的座上宾，斯诺病重时，周恩来专门派了一个医疗队来给他治病，每年都请斯诺夫人去北京，斯诺的骨灰有一半葬在北大的未名湖畔。因为她，有很多人不理解老魏，其实老魏非常有人性。八九年后，斯诺带着子女反叛了中共，而且抗议，写文章，老魏鼓励她。有一次我们带着联席会议的十多位朋友去拜访斯诺夫人，相林也说，过去这些人都是我们的对头，怎么会去她家作客？老魏跟斯诺的儿子同年，都是1950年的。斯诺儿子前些年死了，斯诺夫人把老魏当作儿子。老魏哄老太太嘴也特甜。我感叹，一般人想象老魏是钢铁汉子，没有人情味。其实，他是我见过的最有人情味的人。事实上，我很多次都很感动。

芮：今年六月老魏没有到欧洲来？

黄：同样原因，也没有来。你想，是欧洲议会发的邀请，欧盟啊！比利时大使亲自去说情，都不行。（芮：那你代表他去讲演？）是啊，我就代表他。我对他说，有一天呀，我会代表你去死，哈哈哈哈。对呀，而且我与西方人沟通也比较容易。

芮：回到你自己吧，你说多年都没有说中文，写中文，但你近期发表的文章，在我们《欧华导报》上发的，写得都很好。

黄：是吗？那是要适应总编钱跃君的口味。老魏老批评我是风花雪月，文艺女青年，你们《欧华导报》，钱跃君的风味就是这样。

芮：其实，我们报纸的风味也是多样的，有太多的风花雪月，但也有彭小明文章。

黄：那倒是。泛泛来说，老钱比较喜欢这种文学性的，我就写这种。（芮：那你以前写了很多诗？）也是老钱要我写的。

芮：你说你很悲观，其实你也很乐观嘛，比如你写沙漠里的一泓泉水。

黄：这也很痛苦呀，那泉水要几千年才能到达。沙漠的泉水，其实不远，是从石缝里挤过来的，艰难。（芮：其实，也是有希望的。）那当然。

芮：从2008年到现在，魏京生基金会颁奖，你采用的都是诗词，做颁奖词。

黄：我家是几百年的书香门第。我最早的祖宗是宋朝的工部尚书，不知道是得罪了什么人，逃到浙江黄岩，隐名埋姓，后来靠卖文字为生。我们家所有的人书法都很好，到我们就不行了。几百年还是有遗传的，不是因为我多么努力，多么刻苦，是运气好，生在这样一个人家。虽然教育上也受文革影响，我告诉老魏，人家说你初中都没有读完，那你可以说，黄慈萍小学都没有毕业，却是神童。高中也没有毕业，比较喜欢诗词，比较文学女青年，比较悲观，也比较伤感，人家说你什么都有了，还伤感什么？哈哈。

芮：2016年的颁奖词是“风萧萧兮易水寒，壮士一去兮不复还”，悲壮啊。

黄：2012年是“出师未捷身先死，长使英雄泪满襟。”获奖者是王东海，去世了。2011年的刘迪也去世了。（芮：2017年给唐荆陵。）所有获奖者都坐牢。刘迪、王东海死了。四川的刘贤斌、黄琦都还被关押着。唐荆陵的奖，今年12月10日人权日在华盛顿美国国会正式颁奖，他的家属在加州，到时代表他来领奖。

芮：海外民运中，最能够载入史册的有谁？

黄：王炳章，毕竟建立了海外民运。当时天时地利人和，当年得到蒋经国的支持，现在不可能，都怕中国了。

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你的历史你的文化

芮：海外民运历史上大书特书的事件。如果选三个，你选什么？

黄：一个就是六四抗议，这很重要。第二是对国际社会的游说。德国当年也做了很多啊，钱跃君做了很多。全德学联，全美学自联，包括我本人。后来很多人都退出来，但也有许多人坚持着，包括我帮老魏，钱跃君办《欧华导报》。你看民运人士，有的简单退出了，有的蜕化变质、变节了，都成了中共代言人。第三是通过海外的自由来输送信息和唤醒国内被封闭的大众。

我在美国如鱼得水，中国对我是祖国，可环境那么差。去中国出差，看不惯，好几次和人打架。我在美国过得很好。中产阶级，要啥有啥，很舒服。我回中国，就是真心为了帮助人民。也有人过分了，说中国人不值得帮助。但要让我选择生活的国度，美国是我的选择，但我要为中国做事，帮助那里的人民。老魏说，他回中国没有多少人会跟他回去，我说，我跟你，我要帮助你。

芮：你慢慢读点中文了？（黄：主要还是英文。）可以写点回忆录了。

黄：我也断断续续地写点，网上发表了三五篇，关于宁铂、学自联经历等。也做过黑客。所以，那次回国被抓起来，那些国安说，你看看丁健，也是全美学自联的，现在是中国排行第67位的富翁。他当年也参加学自联竞选。回国后风光了，还选了凤凰卫视的美女许戈辉做老婆。我当年不比他差。我说，丁健去给你们做防火墙，我饿死也不会给你们去做。我要是想日子过好点，早就不干这些事情了。老魏也是一样的。（芮：老魏写回忆录吗？）有一部分，放在我们的保险箱里，早期写的，我是零零碎碎写一些，我写了十多章了。他的东西我整理得非常好。老魏以前的照片我不知道，自从我和他在一起，什么都保留下来了。

芮：老魏被特许在重要场合抽烟，除了澳洲的总理陆克文那里，还有哪里？

黄：岂止！还有法国南特市市长，主持过“世界民主论坛”，后来当了法国外交部长与总理，他给老魏拿了烟灰缸来，说我们这里好多年不许抽烟了。因为市政府那个建筑是木结构，你是我唯一允许的。我对老魏说，你就别抽了，这里是木结构的。他说却之不恭。

芮：很高兴，你接受采访。请你给我们《欧华导报》读者说说。

黄：《欧华导报》办得很出色，各方面各个层次的，政治，文化，经济，丰富多彩。作为人，生活在世界上，要守住道德良知的底线。我其实最不喜欢政治，更喜欢理科，对数学物理兴趣更大。我们作为中国人，生活在自由国家，我欣赏这样的自由，也愿意给我们国家的人民带来这样的自由。我觉得，我们要多少做一点事情。而中国中产阶级那时说低端人口，你们不幸，倒霉，那时中产阶级拥护政府。但你看最近的p2p事件，是中共在共你的产，把你的钱放进他们的腰包。中国的官僚特权阶级，不仅仅是压迫低端人口。作为中国人，我们要为他们呼吁，帮助他们。我们也希望大家共同努力，让我们的国民享受民主自由的权利。

芮：好的，谢谢你接受《欧华导报》的访谈。

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（根据2018年8月18日在德国杜塞多夫访谈录音整理，经受访者审定。）

报纸原件：

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2019/newsletters2019-1/CEP-2018-11-P20-s.pdf

http://www.weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2019/newsletters2019-1/CEP-2018-11-P21-s.pdf