Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A1180-W808

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1180-W808

Release Date: January 12, 2019

发布日：2019年1月12日

Topic: Exclusive Interview of Wei Jingsheng: It Is a Huge Mistake for the United States to Let the Communist Party Make Money (Voice of America)

标题：魏京生专访：美国让共产党挣了钱是巨大错误（美国之音）

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

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Exclusive Interview of Wei Jingsheng: It Is a Huge Mistake for the United States to Let the Communist Party Make Money

-- Xiao Yu and Mo Gansheng, Voice of America

December 5, 2018 10:13

Washington -

On a night in February 1994, a secret meeting was going on in a brightly lit hotel in Beijing.

The meeting was between the then Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights, John Shattuck, and Wei Jingsheng, number one dissident in China.

"That time, to be honest, the Chinese Public Security Bureau did not find out," Wei Jingsheng told the Voice of America with a smile.

The plainclothes officers who secretly monitored Shattuck did not recognize the individual who had been imprisoned for many years because of the Democracy Wall Movement, and the secret police that followed Wei Jingsheng had relaxed their vigilance, thinking that he was only going to see a reporter. In this way, the two met under the eyelids of the Chinese police.

One issue that was being heatedly debated by American political circles at that time was whether the MFN status of trade with China should be delinked from human rights. John Shattuck told Wei Jingsheng that Secretary of State Warren Christopher wanted to come to China to meet with him and to use the opinions of Chinese dissidents as an important reference.

"He asked me if I would see him. He said that if you see him, it would definitely be dangerous. But it is very important to the question of delinking the trade and human rights." Wei Jingsheng recalled, "I said that I definitely would see him, I definitely would not let this delinking happen." The delinking of trade and human rights is too great a threat to Chinese democracy and human rights. So I said that I would see him. Later, when Jiang Zemin learned of it, he was very angry and he scolded these people in the Public Security Bureau."

Shortly after the meeting Wei Jingsheng was arrested again and placed in jail until 1997 when the Chinese government, under pressure from the international community, especially due to the personal mediation of then US President Bill Clinton, released him.

"In 1997, they came to me and said that they would seek medical parole on the condition that I come to the United States. Before that, I had already guessed that for him to be able to come to the USA, Jiang Zemin must have had a deal with President Clinton," Wei Jingsheng said.

On November 17 of that year, Wei Jingsheng arrived in the United States. At the age of 47, he had spent 18 years in Chinese prisons, suffering from illness and almost losing all his teeth. Soon he discovered that he was involved in a political vortex of US-China relations.

More than two weeks later, then US President Bill Clinton invited Wei to meet at the White House. When discussing the contact policy between the USA and China, Wei Jingsheng and Clinton's national security adviser, Sandy Berger, has such a heated debate that Clinton had to mediate the two.

Wei Jingsheng said: "At that time they were ready to give China PNTR - Permanent MFN status. They already had this plan, although I did not know it at that time. My statement of course implied that they should not give these privileges to them, so he was anxious."

Wei Jingsheng told VOA, the day after meeting with Clinton, a member of Congress personally drove him to the home of the chairman of the National Committee on US-China Relations.

"When I arrived, I found out that there were twenty or thirty executives of big American businesses, even with two or three of them who spoke Chinese. They invited me to eat and talked to me: Mr. Wei, so and so... Of course, it was a set of words of courtesy. But when we finally drank coffee after the meal, they began to open up and said Mr. Wei, if you cooperate with us, you could make as much money as you want, even in billions.

"I said how could I cooperation with you? They asked me to help them and promote more of their business with China. I became alert. I said that this might not be possible and started to argue at that time. They said, you see, doing business will be good for China. I said, you are wrong, it will be good for the Chinese Communist Party. They also said that when the Chinese economy develops the people will also do well. I said that ordinary people may get a little bit of benefit, but after the Communist regime gains economic strength, it will continue to oppress the people and will not become democratic. When it enjoys a dictatorship, why should it be democratic?!"

"One person even quarreled with me. He said, what you are saying makes me think that you want to return to the McCarthy era again. That made me really angry. I said that indeed Joseph McCarthy put a lot of intellectuals on your side into a disadvantage and even cost them their jobs. However, you should also know that during the same period the Communist Party in China shot millions of people across China on the excuse of suppressing the counter-revolution. I said, is Joseph McCarthy better or the Communist Party? They had nothing to say and we ended the talk with unhappiness."

Later, there were many experiences like this one without happy endings. Wei Jingsheng called this policy debate on China's permanent MFN status and WTO accession "the biggest and most severe struggle in the United States in modern times." He himself had became a fighter.

[Information: May 22, 2000 Wei Jingsheng: "Americans should really consider whether they should use preferential terms of trade to help the Communist Party develop military strength."]

He recalled: "I had to visit many offices every day, persuading one by one. But then President Clinton simply took carloads (of congressional members) to the White House several times a day. There was a congressional member who was received by Clinton but did not change his position, who told me what kind of conversation was going on in the White House. It was very simple, like: what are the issues with your state? I have already told the so and so ministers. We may solve these problems for you. It means that if you vote for me then your problems might get solved. The White House put pressure directly."

"How does the Communist Party exert pressure? The embassy directly called the senator of an agricultural state in the Midwest. He said 'your state has a letter of intention to sell 1 million tons of wheat in China. Do you want to turn it into a true order?' The purpose was very obvious."

Twenty years have passed. The US-China relationship has had tremendous changes. Wei Jingsheng remains loyal to his own position of the past.

He said: "The facts prove that what I have strived for the past few decades is correct. If China was not given PNTR and WTO back then, how could the Communist regime in China have survived till this day? And how it could even become a threat to the United States?"

"Twenty years later, everyone understands that the United States was put at a disadvantage, while China has taken advantage of it. That is because China definitely is not obeying the rules. Seeing that the United States is weakened day by day -- not only has its economy gotten weak, but the military too is being caught up by China every day; furthering its ideology is exactly opposite to the USA. Its ultimate goal is to beat you up. Even though Deng Xiaoping said to keep a low profile, he really meant to hide the arrow first, but to take it out and shoot you when he has a chance. That is why I say it is a huge mistake when you let the Chinese Communist Party made money."

Link of the original VOA report:

https://www.voachinese.com/a/china-top-dissident-weijingsheng-looking-back-on-sino-us-relations-20181204/4687338.html

Video of this report:

https://www.voachinese.com/a/us-china-wei-jingsheng-interview-20181204/4687340.html or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtqZIB_lOus&feature=youtu.be or

http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2018/WeiJSonChinaUSrelationship181205VOAexclusive.mp4

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中文版

Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A1180-W808

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1180-W808

Release Date: January 12, 2019

发布日：2019年1月12日

Topic: Exclusive Interview of Wei Jingsheng: It Is a Huge Mistake for the United States to Let the Communist Party Make Money (Voice of America)

标题：魏京生专访：美国让共产党挣了钱是巨大错误（美国之音）

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问：

http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2019/report2019-01/WeiJSonUSAmistake190112VOAexclusiveA1180-W808.htm

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美国之音对魏京生的专访：美国让共产党挣了钱是巨大错误

2018年12月5日 10:13

-- 萧雨, 莫干生

华盛顿 -

1994年2月，北京一个寒冷的夜晚，灯火通明的饭店里，一场秘密会晤正在进行。

会晤双方是美国负责人权事务的时任助理国务卿沙塔克（John Shattuck）和当时中国的头号异见分子魏京生。

"那次见面，说实话，公安局没发现，" 魏京生笑着告诉美国之音。

暗中监视沙塔克的便衣人员没有认出这位因民主墙运动坐牢多年的政治犯，而那些形影不离跟着魏京生的秘密警察那天也刚好放松了警惕，以为他只是去见一名记者。就这样，两人在警方的眼皮底下见面了。

当时美国政界正在激烈讨论的一个问题是：对华贸易最惠国待遇是否应该与人权问题脱钩。沙塔克告诉魏京生，国务卿克里斯托弗（Warren Christopher）希望来中国与他会面，把中国异见人士的意见作为重要参考。

"他问我见不见，他说你要是见了，肯定是有危险，但对贸易和人权脱钩(的意见)很重要，"魏京生回忆说，"我说那我肯定得见，我肯定不能让贸易和人权脱钩。那对中国搞人权民主的人威胁太大了。所以我说我见。江泽民后来知道了，气得暴跳如雷，把他们公安局的这些人骂得狗血喷头的。"

那次会面后不久，魏京生再度被捕，直到1997年中国政府迫于国际社会压力，特别是在美国总统克林顿的亲自斡旋下才将他释放。

"1997年他们来找我，说要保外就医，条件是你得到美国。在那之前我就猜到，江泽民到美国来，肯定是跟克林顿有交易，"魏京生说。

当年11月17日，魏京生抵达美国。时年47岁的他在中国坐了18年牢，疾病缠身，牙齿几乎掉光。很快他就发现，自己卷入了一场美中关系的政治漩涡。

两个多星期后，时任美国总统克林顿请他到白宫会晤。在讨论美国与中国的接触政策时，魏京生和克林顿的国家安全顾问伯格（Sandy Berger）吵得面红耳赤，以至于克林顿不得不出面打圆场。

魏京生说："那个时候他们已经准备给中国PNTR--永久最惠国待遇。他们已经有这个计划了，虽然我当时不知道。我的说法当然暗示不让他们给，所以他急了。"

魏京生告诉美国之音，和克林顿见面的第二天，一个国会议员亲自开车，带着他到了时任美中关系全国委员会主席的家。

"去了以后才发现，二三十个都是美国大企业的高管，居然里头还有两三个人讲中文的，他们请客吃饭，跟我说，老魏啊......当然都是套话了。但是最终饭后喝咖啡的时候，他们才开始亮相了，说魏先生你能不能跟我们合作，你要是跟我们合作，钱有的是，要多少有多少，以亿计。"

"我说跟你们合作做什么？他说，让我帮他们，促进他们更多地跟中国做生意。我就已经有警觉了。我说，这个可能我做不到。当时就争吵起来了。他们说，你看，做生意对中国也有好处。我说，你说错了，那是对中共有好处。他们又说，做生意中国经济发展了，老百姓也会怎么样。我说，老百姓可能得到一点点实惠，但是共产党经济实力变强了以后，会继续压迫老百姓，不会民主。它独裁日子过得挺好，为什么要民主呢？！"

"有一个人还跟我吵架。他说，你这样说话不是又要回到麦卡锡时代了吗？我马上就火了。我说麦卡锡是让你们这边很多知识分子吃了亏了，丢了工作了。但是你要知道，同一个时间共产党镇压反革命在全国枪毙了几百万人。我说，是麦卡锡好还是共产党好？他们都没话说了。所以后来就不欢而散了。"

这样不欢而散的经历后来还有很多。魏京生把那场围绕中国永久最惠国待遇和加入世贸组织的政策辩论称作"美国近代以来的最大的，最严厉的一场斗争。"他自己俨然成了一名斗士。

【资料：2000年5月22日魏京生："美国人确实应该考虑一下，他们是不是应该用优惠的贸易条件去帮助共产党发展军事实力。"】

他回忆说："我那时候每天要串好多个办公室，一个一个说服。克林顿干脆就拿车往白宫接，一天接待好几拨。有一个被他接待过但是没有变立场的议员跟我谈话，告诉我他把人拉到那怎么说。很简单，说你这个州有什么什么问题，我已经跟哪个部长说了。那个问题可能会给你解决。意思是说你投我一票可以给你解决。白宫直接施加压力。"

"共产党怎么施加压力呢？大使馆直接给中西部一个农业州的参议员打电话。说你们州里跟我们中国有100万吨小麦的意向书，你想不想让它变成订单啊？话就很明显了。"

20年过去了，美中关系早已沧海桑田。魏京生依然忠于自己当年的立场。

他说："事实证明，我这几十年的奋斗做的事没错，是对的。如果当年不给中国PNTR和WTO的话，共产党怎么会熬到今天，怎么会甚至变成美国的威胁了？"

"20年这一路，大家都明白，美国在吃亏，中国在占便宜。因为中国肯定不守规矩。眼见着一天天美国就弱了，不但是经济上弱了，军事上也一天天要被中国赶上了，而且它意识形态跟你是完全相反的。它的最终目的就是打垮你。哪怕邓小平说韬光养晦，就是先把那个箭头藏起来，等有机会了才拿出来打你呢。所以说你让共产党挣了钱，这本身就是一个巨大的错误。"

本报道的原始链接：

https://www.voachinese.com/a/china-top-dissident-weijingsheng-looking-back-on-sino-us-relations-20181204/4687338.html