Wei Jingsheng Foundation
News and Article: A1347-W961
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1347-W961
Release Date: December
19, 2020
发布日：2020年12月19日
Topic: Window on the
World Program of Voice of America Broadcasts its Interview with Mr. Wei
Jingsheng on Espionage by the Chinese Communist Regime
标题：美国之音时事经纬节目采访魏京生：很多美国政治家出卖美国利益,帮助中共做事
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The Voice of America
Window on the World Program Broadcasts Its Interview with Mr. Wei Jingsheng on
Espionage by the Chinese Communist Regime
The Voice of America’s Window on the World, hosted by Zhi Yuan
-- Wei Jingsheng: Many
American politicians betrayed American interests to help the CCP; the future of
the "two Mikes" detained by China is uncertain, and it is expected
that the penalty for espionage will not be light
December 17, 2020
1/ The recent leak of
the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) member database has caused great concern in
the Western world. The Chinese
government refutes that this is a smear and slander against the CCP, but the
outside world generally thinks that this leak provided evidence of the
operation of the CCP's penetration abroad;
2/ Beijing accused the
United States of abusing the concept of national security to suppress Chinese
personnel, enterprises and institutions.
Washington and Beijing: which one is abusing the name of national
security?
3/ US defense and
security experts believe that when Biden enters the White House, he may try to
rebuild a new alliance to deal with Beijing;
4/ Australia made a
formal appeal to the WTO regarding China imposing high tariffs on its export of
barley;
5/ After 12 Hong Kongers
who were detained in Shenzhen Yantian Detention Center for nearly 4 months were
formally charged, the case has new developments;
6/ Canadian citizens
Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have been detained two years by the Chinese
government, and the fate of the two remains uncertain.
The following is VOA
Zhiyuan’s interview with Wei Jingsheng (first 18 minutes).
Voice of America:
Recently, the database of 1.95 million registered CCP members that was obtained
by the "Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China" formed by
multinational parliamentary members has attracted great attention with reports
by Western media. On the other hand, the
"Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China" on Tuesday urged the foreign
ministers of their countries to issue statements in support of Australia's
resistance to China's bullying and coercion.
At the same time, high level Republicans in the U.S. House of
Representatives asked the FBI to inform them about the CCP’s espionage
activities in the United States. The
Chinese Foreign Affairs Ministry’s spokesperson, Wang Wenbin, was asked at a
regular press conference on December 15th about the reports of Chinese
Communist Party members infiltrating government agencies in Western
countries. Wang said that this is a
smear and slander against the Chinese Communist Party by individual anti-China
elements and another version of the China threat theory. So what organization is the
"Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China"? Why did it disclose the database of 1.95
million Chinese Communist Party members?
Does the so-called CCP espionage really exist with external
penetration? The Voice of America invited
Wei Jingsheng, the advisor on human rights to the "Inter-Parliamentary
Alliance on China" and Chairman of the Overseas Chinese Democracy
Coalition, to talk about his understanding.
Mr. Wei Jingsheng, before talking about the infiltration of Chinese
spies, would you please briefly introduce the organization the
"Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China" and your role in it?
Wei Jingsheng:
Sure. We promoted this
"Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China" many years ago, and we talked
to Nancy Pelosi and Frank Wolf, etc. But
the entire international climate in the past was not very suitable. I have also talked about this in the European
Parliament. Everyone also has this
desire in their hearts. But the whole
atmosphere was not suitable, so it was not organized. This matter has only recently been
implemented, but it was established after many parliamentary members in many
countries in Europe and the USA discussed it in many ways. The purpose of its establishment is mainly to
coordinate the policies of Western countries towards China. The Chinese Communist Party’s policy is to
bully and defeat each country one by one, especially the smaller countries,
such as some countries in Europe, Australia, and Japan, etc. The CCP bullied them one by one, and then
held this trade policy in its hands, including infiltrating some Western
politicians. In this case, the best way
to deal with the CCP is to have a unified and coordinated action, so that it
would be more effective in dealing with the CCP. Now this "Inter-Parliamentary Alliance
on China" has been established.
After its establishment, some actions were taken step by step to
coordinate the policies of Western countries towards China. It is more effective if everyone does one
thing together to deal with the CCP.
VOA: This week,
according to a database of CCP members disclosed by the "Inter-Parliamentary
Alliance on China", the Australian media reported that CCP members are
currently employed by diplomatic missions of at least 10 countries in
Shanghai. The foreign affairs experts
interviewed for the report warned that some CCP members have worked in a
foreign consulate of some country for 16 years, which may be part of a
state-funded spy network. The (Chinese)
Global Times said that these materials were handed over to the
"Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China" by an internal agent. What do you think of this matter?
Wei Jingsheng: Sometimes
people in Western countries may argue fiercely, so one has to get evidence
before one can talk about. Now we have
the evidence, and we have this list of 1.95 million CCP members, many of whom
work in institutions in various countries, including embassies and
consulates. In fact, we have known in
Beijing long ago that the CCP always required all foreign organizations,
including you foreign news media, must go through its Diplomatic Service Office
to hire Chinese in China, including chefs, cleaning people, etc. These people are obviously endowed with the
role of spying. This has been a serious
problem for decades, but now it is just showing the tip of the iceberg. The current evidence is very important. It proves that the CCP does work in this
area. Every country should think about
it and see what measures can be taken.
Voice of America: Last
week, the American media exposed a female Chinese spy, Fang Fang, who was
alleged to have entered the United States by using the status of studying
abroad. She infiltrated the California
political arena – members of the US Congress to local and state government
officials were all in her target range.
However, there are also a few self-media defending Fang Fang, saying
that she just used her own female conditions to work hard for her career. What is your opinion on this incident?
Wei Jingsheng: This kind
of explanation is very powerless and a helpless explanation. In fact, espionage using beauty is traditional. This has been true since ancient times. The CCP has never been lagging behind in this
regard. Since the development of the
Chinese Communist Party in the 1920s and 1930s, they have had many such spies,
including those who infiltrated the United States and infiltrated various
agencies. These spies find it easy to
succeed and are very harmful because some politicians, including some staff,
cannot withstand the temptation. After
being threatened, they will reveal a lot of secret information. Especially for those with families and
children, in order to keep their family and children, they have to disclose
information to these beautiful spies.
This is the usual practice of intelligence wars.
Voice of America: A
video of a speech by Di Dongsheng, deputy dean of the School of International
Relations at Renmin University of China, went viral on the Internet
recently. The content mentions how the
CCP has old friends on Wall Street in the USA and around the world, who would
help the CCP to do anything when money is used.
Regarding Di Dongsheng's seemingly ostentatious speech, how does China
exert influence on the elites in the American inner circle? What is your opinion?
Wei Jingsheng: This
person is very interesting. He is a
member of CCP think tanks. He
unconsciously brags these things, and may want to raise his status, to show
that he knows this inside information well.
In fact, before this, there have been many public publications that also
talked about this issue. It's just that
Westerners didn't pay much attention.
Because the past engagement policy actually was an appeasement policy,
Americans thought that was normal.
Including in Chinese newspapers, there has long been such news. Long ago in 1990’s, when I was in prison, I
read the People's Daily which had this kind of news.
Voice of America: Acting
Chairman of the US Senate Intelligence Committee Marco Rubio tweeted on
Tuesday: “The very first hearing of the Senate Intel Committee next congress
must be on China’s efforts to spy on, influence & potentially coerce
government officials in the U.S., including members of congress.” Rubio said on Twitter that “Recent reports of
Chinese espionage are just the tip of the iceberg”. The implication is that the CCP's penetration
and intervention in the United States exceeds many people's imagination. What is your opinion?
Wei Jingsheng: This is
what I have reminded Americans to pay attention to for many years. In the past, it was also due to the overall
political atmosphere. Many members of
Congress were aware of this, but did not have much will. This problem is really serious. This is because the intelligence thinking of
the CCP has been different from that of the West since the 1920s and
1930s. The West considers someone a spy
only when one steals information. But
the CCP considers the most advanced spies to be the ones that influence the
politics of your country. So the CCP
sent out many political spies. They do
not steal intelligence. They do not
steal information. And they do not violate
the law. But they try their best to get
into the political and academic circles of the United States with the help of
organizations and money. On the one
hand, they buy people. On the other
hand, they influence American politics and decision-making. We found that many American politicians
betrayed American interests. They helped
the CCP do things and helped the CCP to speak, even in the US Congress. Twenty years ago, in the famous struggle
regarding giving China the permanent MFN status, many congressional members
actually mentioned this to me. They said
frankly that they were under pressure from the CCP from all aspects. Some directly said that some other
congressional members had a good relationship with the CCP and spoke for the
CCP. Therefore, this situation, in the
era when the appeasement policy prevailed, was not regarded as a serious matter
by everyone. It can be said to be an
understatement and was ignored. Now that
the political atmosphere has changed, this issue must be resolved. When your decision-making institutions are
all controlled and challenged by other countries, can your country not
decline? It will definitely
decline. Since ancient times, China's
spy war had a lot of experience in this area, and many have even become operas,
and popular literature, etc. We are all
familiar with these. So now that the
Americans have finally noticed this situation and have begun to treat this as a
serious matter, I do think this is a good phenomenon. It is a very good phenomenon for the United
States and for Chinese democracy.
VOA: US Senator Rick
Scott said in an interview with VOA that China is trying to infiltrate American
college campuses through the Thousand Talents Program. Can you comment on this Thousand Talents
Plan?
Wei Jingsheng: Of course
China needs to introduce talents. But
the CCP is fundamentally unscrupulous in doing things. Deng Xiaoping’s famous saying was: Regardless
of black cats or white cats, it is a good cat when it catches mice. So while they bring in talents reasonably and
legally, they pay more attention to stealing the achievements of others. These people who have done research in the
United States have a lot of information including research results, which are
made in the United States. The Americans
spent a lot of money and used American resources to carry it out. So after these people are brought to China,
these results were brought to China as well.
Many people in China think that this is a good thing for China. But this kind of immoral act of stealing
other people's things is a criminal act, a thief's act. So Americans should of course pay attention
to this and take preventive measures, and to take some measures for
universities and research institutions.
We noticed that the Trump era has already begun this, and the subsequent
government will definitely take this as a priority because this is related to
the interest of the United States. If
you do not pay attention to the interests of the United States, American
high-tech will be gone quickly.
Voice of America: The
Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Jim Risch, said in
an interview with American media on Tuesday, December 15th: China is a
competitor of the United States in the military, economic, and cultural fields. But more importantly, China is a competitor
in ideology. What do you think?
Wei Jingsheng: It is
very important for the Americans to realize this. In the past, when the appeasement policy
prevailed, they said it was okay: We all kept our own ideologies, as long as we
do business and trade. That was formed
under the impetus of big capitalists.
Now people have finally noticed that the CCP’s ideology is to eliminate
democracy and freedom. People noticed
this. The Chinese Communist Party has
never denied this. Of course, in
diplomacy, one may tell lies and put aside disputes. But in fact, the ultimate goal of the CCP is
to rule the world, and Xi Jinping is now becoming more and more eloquent. The Western countries have to pay attention
to this serious problem. That is because
the value system is the most fundamental thing in a society. The CCP is spreading its ideology and has its
ambition to rule the world with its ideology.
So if the West does not pay attention, it will be hollowed out and
controlled by the CCP. So this problem
is indeed the most serious problem, even worse than the spy problem.
Voice of America: A U.S.
senator, Senator Josh Hawley, told the Voice of America that he is worried that
the biggest problem at the moment is that the US policy-makers have
inconsistent awareness and alertness to China.
He said that the problem now is that there is a big debate among
American policymakers. Some people do
not believe that China is really a threat, and they do not want to change
regardless whatever happens. They want
contact with Beijing. They don't think
the Chinese government is really malicious.
They want to continue to buy cheap goods from China. They don't care if Americans’ jobs are lost,
where they went to, or what are stolen from us.
What is your opinion?
Wei Jingsheng: This kind
of statement basically comes from big American companies. These big companies have made money in
China. Even if they are in the United
States, they don’t care about values, and the prosperity of the country. They don't care about these. They only care about making money. Therefore, these politicians actually
represent these big companies. That
so-called China is not malicious is the excuse they made, a rumor they want to
spread. How could the CCP have no
malice? The CCP wants the decline of the
United States and the destruction of the democratic system. This is its root. This is its most basic idea and long-term
strategy. This is deceiving. It represents the large American companies,
not the America as a country or the American people.
For more commentaries by
Wei Jingsheng, please listen to VOA's Window on the World program on December
17, 2020:
https://www.voachinese.com/a/5702812.html
Related audio (The first
18 minutes is the VOA interview of Wei Jingsheng):
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2020/WeiJSonCCPespionage201217VOAinterview.mp3
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中文版
Wei Jingsheng Foundation
News and Article: A1347-W961
魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1347-W961
Release Date: December
19, 2020
发布日：2020年12月19日
Topic: Window on the
World Program of Voice of America Broadcasts its Interview with Mr. Wei
Jingsheng on Espionage by the Chinese Communist Regime
标题：美国之音时事经纬节目采访魏京生：很多美国政治家出卖美国利益,帮助中共做事
Original Language
Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)
此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）
如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问：
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美国之音时事经纬节目
-- 魏京生：很多美国政治家出卖美国利益,帮助中共做事;被中国扣押的“两个麦克”前途未卜,料间谍罪量刑不会轻
2020年12月17日 07:39
美国之音
时事经纬(2020年12月17日):
1/最近一份中共党员数据库的泄露引起西方世界极大关注，中方反驳这是对中共的抹黑和污蔑，但外界普遍认为这为中共对外渗透的运作提供了实证;
2/北京指责美国滥用国家安全概念打压中国人员、企业和机构。华盛顿和北京，是谁在滥用国家安全之名?
3/美国国防和安全专家认为,
拜登若入主白宫后可能会试图重建新的同盟以应对北京;
4/澳大利亚就中国对其出口大麦征收高额关税，向世界贸易组织提出正式上诉;
5/在深圳盐田看守所被扣押近4个月的12名香港人被正式控罪后，案情有新进展;
6/加拿大公民康明凯以及麦克•斯帕弗被中国政府扣押已满两周年，两人命运仍然未卜。
以下是美国之音致远对魏京生的采访（前18分钟）。
美国之音：近日由多国国会议员组成的《对华政策跨国议会联盟》获得的一百九十五万名注册的中共党员的数据库在西方媒体报道后，引起极大关注。另一方面，《对华政策跨国议会联盟》星期二敦促所在国的外交部长发表声明，支持澳大利亚抵制中国的欺凌和胁迫。同时，美国众议院共和党高层要求联邦调查局向他们介绍中共在美国境内的间谍活动。中国外交部发言人汪文斌在星期二即十二月十五号的例行记者会上被问到有关中共党员渗透西方国家政府机构的报道时说，这是个别反华分子对中国共产党的抹黑和污蔑，是中国威胁论的又一个翻版。那么《对华政策跨国议会联盟》是个什么组织？为什么披露一百九十五万名中共党员的数据库？中共对外渗透影响的所谓间谍问题是否真的存在？美国之音邀请《对华政策跨国议会联盟》人权顾问，中国民主运动海外联席会议主席魏京生谈谈他了解的情况。魏京生先生，在谈中共间谍渗透问题之前，首先请您简单介绍一下《对华政策跨国议会联盟》这个组织以及您在其中的作用，好吗？
魏京生：可以。这个跨国议会联盟，很多年以前我们就推动过，跟南希佩罗西（Nancy Pelosi）、跟佛兰克沃尔夫（Frank
Wolf）等都谈过。但过去的整个国际大气候不是很适合。我在欧洲议会也都谈过这件事情。大家心里也都有这愿望。可整个气氛不适合，就没组织起来。最近才把这事落实了。但也是经过很多个国家，与欧洲和美国的议员多方磋商以后酝酿了段时间，才成立起来。成立的目的，主要是协调西方国家的对华政策。中国共产党的政策，是各个击破，一个一个地欺负，特别是那些小一点的国家，像欧洲的一些国家、澳大利亚、日本这些国家。中国共产党这么做，一个个地欺负，而且手里攥着这个贸易政策，包括渗透一些西方政治家。这样的话，要对付中共最好是有一个统一的、大家协调一致的动作，这样对付中共才比较有效。现在这个《对华政策跨国议会联盟》成立了。成立后，一步一步地采取一些行动，来协调西方各国之间的对华政策。大家一起做一件事对付中共就比较有效了。
美国之音：这个星期，澳洲媒体根据《对华政策跨国议会联盟》披露的一份中共党员数据库，报道说：中共党员目前受雇于至少十个国家驻上海的外交使团。报道采访的外交事务专家警告说：有中共党员在某国的外国领事馆工作长达16年，这可能是国家资助的间谍网的一部分。环球时报说，这些资料交给《对华政策跨国议会联盟》，是有内鬼。对这个事你怎么看？
魏京生：西方国家有时因大家争论比较激烈，所以必须得拿到证据才能说话。现在拿到证据了，拿到一百九十五万中共党员名单，其中有很多人在各国的机构里工作，包括在使馆工作。其实我们在北京时早就知道，中共一贯要求所有外国机构包括你这些外国新闻媒体在中国要雇用中国人的话，就必须通过外交人员服务处，包括厨师、扫地的，等等。这些人很明显就赋以这个间谍的作用。这个在几十年前就一直是很严重的问题，现在只不过是露出了冰山一角。现在的证据很重要，证明了中共确实有这方面的工作。各国该想想，看看能采取什么措施。
美国之音：上星期的美国媒体爆出一名被指称利用留学身份进入美国的中共女间谍方芳，渗透加州政坛，上至国会议员，下至地方州政府官员，都在其目标范围。不过也有个别自媒体为方芳辩护，说她只是利用女子自身条件，为自己的事业打拼。对这一事件，您的看法？
魏京生：这种解释，很没有力量，是一种无奈的解释。实际上，这种利用美色进行间谍活动是有传统的。自古以来如此。而中共在这方面从来也不落后。自从中共发展起来，从上个世纪的二三十年代，他们就有很多这样的间谍，而且包括渗透到美国，渗入各个机构里头的美女间谍。这些间谍很容易得手，而且危害性非常大。因为有些政治家包括有些职员经不住诱惑，受到威胁以后，就会透露很多秘密情报。特别是对有家庭、有子女的，为了保住自己的家庭子女，不得不向这些美女间谍透露情报。这是情报战的通常做法。
美国之音：中国人民大学国际关系学院副院长翟东升的一篇演说视频，最近在网上疯传。内容提及中共如何在美国华尔街及全世界都有老朋友。有人能用美金搞定一切。对翟东升这段看来炫耀的讲话，中国如何对美国核心圈精英施加影响，您的看法？
魏京生：这人很有意思。他是中共智囊团成员之一。他不自觉地夸这些东西，可能要抬高自己的身份，表明他很知道这个内幕消息。其实在这之前，已经有很多公开的出版物，也谈到了这个问题。只不过是西方人不太注意。美国人由于过去的那个接触政策，所谓接触政策是说得好听点，其实就是绥靖政策，他们认为这很正常。包括在中国的报纸上，早就有这种消息。很早了，九几年我在监狱里看人民日报，里头就有这样的新闻。。。
美国之音：美国参议院情报委员会代理主席卢比奥星期二在推特上发文表示：明年新一届国会参议院情报委员会的首场听证会，务必聚焦中国对美国政府官员，包括对美国国会议员进行间谍活动的影响和潜在胁迫的工作。卢比奥在推特中说，最近有关中国间谍的报道只是冰山的一角。言外之意是中共对美国的渗透和干预程度超乎很多人的想象。您的看法？
魏京生：这也是我多年以来提醒美国人要注意的。过去也是由于整个大的政治气氛，很多国会议员也意识到这点，但没有特别多的意愿。这个问题确实很严重。因为中共的情报思想，从上个世纪二三十年代，就和西方的情报思想是不太一样的。西方就是偷窃了情报，才算间谍。可中共认为最高级的间谍是能影响你这个国家政治的。所以中共派出来很多的政治间谍。他们不偷情报，不偷消息，也不犯法，但他们想方设法在组织的帮助下，在金钱的支持下，混入到美国的政界，美国的学术界。一方面收买人，一方面影响美国政界及决策。我们发现很多的美国政治家出卖美国的利益，帮助中共做事，帮助中共说话，甚至在国会都是这样。二十年前，那场著名的给中国永久最优惠国待遇的斗争，其实很多议员都已向我提到这个问题。他们自己就坦承说，受到中共的压力，从各个方面都受到压力。有些直接就说其他某个议员，跟中共关系很好，给中共说话的。所以这个情况，在过去那个绥靖政策盛行的时代，没被大家当做回事。可以说是轻描淡写地一笔带过了。现在政治气氛改变了，这个问题必须解决。你的决策机构都受到别的国家的控制和挑战，那这个国家能不衰落吗？肯定会衰落的。中国自古以来谍报战都有这方面的很多经验，而且很多变成戏曲，通俗文学等，大家都熟悉这些。所以现在美国人终于注意到这情况了，开始把这做为一个严重的事情来对待，我觉得这是一个好的现象。对美国，对我们中国的民主，都是一个很好的现象。
美国之音：联邦参议员斯科特在接受美国之音采访时说，中国试图透过千人计划渗透到美国的大学校园。对于这个千人计划，你能谈谈看法吗？
魏京生：当然中国需要引进人才。但是中共根本就是做事不择手段的。邓小平的名言就是：不管黑猫、白猫，逮到老鼠就是好猫。所以他们在合理合法地引进人才的情况下，更重视偷窃别人成果。因为这些在美国做了研究工作的人，有很多的资料包括研究成果，是美国重点做出来的，美国人花了多钱，使用美国的资源做出来的。那么把这些人引到中国后，把这些成果一下子就拿到中国了。中国很多人觉得这对中国不是好事吗？但这种没道德的，偷窃别人东西的行为，是一种犯罪的行为，小偷的行为。所以说美国人当然应该对此引起注意，采取防范措施。对大学研机构采取一些措施，我们注意到川普时期已经开始了，后面的政府肯定也会把这当作个重点。因为这是美国的利益。如果不注意这个美国的利益，美国的高科技就会很快地流失。
美国之音：参议院外交关系委员会主席李师12月15号星期二在接受美国媒体访问时说：中国是美国在军事、经济、文化领域的竞争者，但更重要的是中国还是在意识形态上的竞争者，您的看法？
魏京生：这一点美国人注意到，很重要。过去绥靖政策盛行时，说没关系，我们都各自保留各自的意识形态，只要做生意就可以了。那是在大资本家的推动下形成的。现在大家终于注意到了，共产党的意识形态就是要消灭民主自由。共党也从来不否认这一点。当然在外交的时候，可以说假话，说搁置争议等。但实际上共产党的最终目标就是要统治全世界，习近平现在越来越露峥嵘了。那么作为西方国家，不得不注意到这个严重的问题。因为价值观念是一个社会存在的最根本的东西。共产党在传播它的意识形态，而且有用它那意识形态统治全世界的野心。西方如不注意，那就从根本上被人家掏空了，从根本上被人家给控制了。所以这个问题确实是最严重的问题，甚至比间谍的问题还要严重。
美国之音：美国的一个参议员霍利参议员，对美国之音说他担心目前最大的问题在于美国决策层对中国的认知和警觉程度不一致。他说现在问题是美国决策者有一个很大的争论，有些人不会相信中国真的是个威胁，无论发生什么事他们不想改变。他们想要与北京联系。他们不认为中国政府真的有恶意。他们想要继续从中国那里买廉价的商品。他们不在乎我们的工作是否流失，到哪里，或者从我们这里偷走了什么。您的看法？
魏京生：这种说法基本上来自美国的大企业。这些大企业在中国赚了钱。而且即使他们在美国也无所谓什么价值观念，国家兴旺。这些他们不在乎。他们只在乎自己能赚钱。所以这些政治家所说的这种说法，其实是代表这些大企业。所谓中国没恶意，那就是他们找的借口，他们要散布的一个谣言。中共怎么会没有恶意？它要让美国衰落，要让民主制度灭亡，这是它的根本。这是它最基本的想法，长期的策略。这是在骗人。它所代表的是美国的大企业，而不是美国国家，或美国人民。
有关更多评述，请聆听美国之音2020年12月17日的时事经纬节目：
https://www.voachinese.com/a/5702812.html
相关录音（魏京生的采访部分：前18分钟）：
http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2020/WeiJSonCCPespionage201217VOAinterview.mp3
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