Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article: A1401-W1004

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1401-W1004

Release Date: June 27, 2021

发布日：2021年6月27日

Topic: Wei Jingsheng: Even If I Didn't Participate the Democracy Wall, I Don't Think I Could Have Escaped Later -- Voice of America Exclusive Interview

标题：魏京生：即使我没在”民主墙”出现，后来也逃不过去 -- 美国之音

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

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One Hundred Years of CCP,the Time of Awakening

Wei Jingsheng: Even If I Didn't Participate the Democracy Wall, I Don't Think I Could Have Escaped Later

-- Voice of America Exclusive Interview by Xiao Yu

June 19, 2021

Wei Jingsheng:

Everyone knows that I am a cadre's child. During the Cultural Revolution, everyone burned all their photos at home. These cadres were afraid that in case they were in trouble it could hurt their friends as well. When I burned photos for my mother, I found a photo. I said: Hey, isn’t this Jiang Qing (Mao Zedong’s wife)? Who was the child she was holding? My mother said, Who else but you. I said, how did you know Jiang Qing? My mother said that the two families were neighbors at that time. In additional, she and Jiang Qing were both from Qingdao. The relationship between the two of them was very good at the beginning, but then it didn't go well, and my mom told me in particular: "If our family ever encounters any disaster, you should not go to her for help."

My mother's opinion on this aspect was actually earlier than my father's. From very early days, she had her own opinions about the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and Mao Zedong. In the early 1960s, before the fight between China and the Soviet Union become public, the related information was already delivered within the CCP leadership. My mother was the party secretary of a very big company. She talked about it in advance at a public meeting. Because the matter had not been made public but only communicated within the party, this revelation was tantamount to making a mistake. She was demoted from the party secretary all the way down to an ordinary worker at once. From then on, she might have begun to doubt this Communist Party. She should have realized that the CCP is a big scam earlier than my father.

Because I was a child of cadres, our living conditions were better than ordinary Chinese. We also went to better schools than ordinary Chinese. The education that we, the children of the cadres received in schools since childhood was how great the CCP is; how the Chinese people support it; how happy the Chinese are; while the people of Taiwan had to eat banana peels; and the American people are in dire situation, and so on. At that time, I was really full of these CCP’s educational concepts. So during the Cultural Revolution, many of us joined the Red Guards to defend Chairman Mao and the Communist Party with great enthusiasm, as if we were not really afraid of anything even death.

The first time I had doubts was when we went all over China “to get connected” (during the Cultural Revolution). We were the first “to get connected”. At that time, there were no large-scale “connection” activites, so we took ordinary trains, mixed with ordinary passengers, and headed northwest. When I arrived in the area of Dingyuan of Gansu, after Tianshui, at a temporary stop I stuck my head out of the train, because the pancake I bought in Tianshui at that time was unpalatable as it was made of mixed low grade grains. I wanted to give that pancake to a beggar.

I was shocked. The beggar in front of me was a girl aged 17 or 18, who didn't wear any clothes at all. Her body was black and very dirty. She held someone who might have been her brother, draped in a sack. I was very shocked at the time, how could this happen? Opposite me sat a person who might be a clerk going out for business. He said, Oh, this situation is very common. In such a poor place, you can buy such a girl for ten RMB’s. I couldn't understand these situations at the time, and I was shocked. From then on I began to doubt the education I received in school back then. Is the Communist Party really that good? Why is there such a situation?

[Editor’s note: In December 1966, when a large number of senior CCP officials were hit by the Cultural Revolution, the Red Guards, headed by the children of senior CCP cadres, established the "Capital Red Guards Joint Action Committee" (referred to as "Joint Action") to openly confront the CCP’s Cultural Revolution Group. They wanted to protect their parents. They also threatened: "The Cultural Revolution Group forced us to rebel, and we have to." Within one month, "the Joint Action" was declared a counter-revolutionary organization, and more than 100 key members of “the Joint Action” were arrested. ]

In the middle and late periods of the Cultural Revolution, I fled to our hometown in the countryside in order to avoid being tracked by the Ministry of Public Security. Our hometown is actually a well-known prosperous land of fish and rice in the country. It is near Chao Lake (in Anhui Province), a place where soldiers and food have been particularly abundant since ancient times. Later, I actually discovered that half of the population in our hometown starved to death during the Great Leap Forward. Half of the people starved to death next to our village. In our village, one of our relatives took the courage to distribute the government's food, and he was almost sentenced. Because he was an old Communist member, he was not sentenced, but only expelled from the party.

I did some investigations locally, and asked how people survived that time. People said that even the rats were eaten at that time, all the rat dens were dug, and then they began to eat humans. I questioned if there was such a thing, called cannibalism? People told me that there is a village next to us, maybe a couple miles away from us, where all that was left were earthen walls. It had been eight years, as it was 1968. Eight years had passed since the Great Famine, and no one has returned there alive, which means that all the villagers were starved to death. Since then, I have had great doubts about the Communist regime.

A thorough understanding of the Communist Party may have occurred after I became a soldier, when I had contacts with people from all over China. I discovered that the situation of people starving to death was not only in our hometown, but also in all other parts of China. It's just that people in poor areas know how to survive years of famine from history. They know that by digging wild vegetables, digging roots, there may not be so many dead people. But my hometown had been a prosperous land of fish and rice, and there had not been the problem of insufficient food since ancient times. Wherever the Great Famine happened (in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s), people starved to death and were very miserable. After seeing this situation, my impression of the Communist regime gradually became negative.

When we were in the army, we often went to the town to buy things on Sundays. There was a bookstore in the town. There are many Marxist books in the bookstore, which were not sold. Who would read these books in the countryside? I bought the whole set. When I studied Marxism, unlike in the past when I held an attitude of respect, I started to read it with a critical attitude. I also read many books other than Karl Marx. At that time, China had many internal publications, as many Communists were allowed to read many banned books. The senior cadres had two publications of "Internal Reference", or "Big Reference" every day. "Big Reference" mainly talks about foreign affairs, and "Internal Reference" mainly talks about internal affairs in China. Through these publications, we had an objective understanding of China's reality. Looking at Marxism from an objective point of view, there is a basic logical error. How can you use a dictatorship and a tyranny to establish democracy? How can you use tyranny to protect the interests of the people?

From the time I went to the countryside to when I became a soldier, my understanding of the Communist Party had basically completely turned around. Through the period of being a soldier and a worker, I got a deep understanding of Chinese history and the current situation of Chinese society. This was the most important and also the most precious time in my life.

[Editor's note: In the late 1970s, Wei Jingsheng, an electrician at the Beijing Zoo, joined the Xidan Democracy Wall movement. He posted the small-character essay "The Fifth Modernization: Democracy and Others" and participated in the creation of the underground publication "Exploration." Four days after he criticized Deng Xiaoping by name, he was arrested and jailed twice for a total of 18 years.]

When I went out to do these things during the Democracy Wall, my father didn't object. His thoughts had actually changed. When the Democracy Wall was about to be suppressed, he had a lot of inside information and he told me that this thing you are doing will cost you your head being chopped off, so stop it quickly. Of course I told him, I can't stop.

Sometimes what a person should do is a bit destined. (If it all started again,) I think I would do it again. This is because after the Democracy Wall, China has gradually more opportunities for people to demand democracy and freedom. The Democracy Wall was the first opportunity. So, even if I didn't participate during the Democracy Wall time, I don't think I could have escaped later.

Today's young people are living well, far away from the Cultural Revolution, from the Great Famine, and even far away from the June 4th Massacre. Now the young people may not all know what happened at those times, but you can look at the history of your own country. Then also take a look at the history of other countries and treat it as a warning. Don't get enthusiastic about what others shout, and follow them. For example, look at the history of Germany. The German economy during the Hitler's time was also developing rapidly, and people's lives were improving. Then Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party instigated racism in the face of patriotism, which is similar in content to the so-called patriotism that is incited in China now. Under the incitement by this craze, first, the autocratic tyranny got consolidated. Second, because he got stability, Hitler began to expand his ambitions, which was exactly the same as the increasingly fierce wolf warrior incitement that Xi Jinping engages in today. The next step was to begin external expansion, which brought many disasters not only to the German people, but also to the neighboring peoples.

I always want to tell young people not to worship anything or anyone. Think about what others are saying and see through your own eyes. Believe what you see with your eyes. Believe in the conclusions drawn from your own thinking. Look at this disaster that has lasted for 70 years in China from the 1950s to the present. It started when the Communist Party was founded in 1921. The seed of disaster is the seed of deception. As it has lasted for 100 years, then it should be dead soon.

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Narrator: Wei Jingsheng｜Democracy Activist

-- Voice of America

Wei Jingsheng was born in 1950. His parents were both senior cadres of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). From an early age, he received the red education of loving the Chinese Communist Party in the best school in Beijing, and at the same time he heard and witnessed the power struggles within the high-level CCP.

When the Cultural Revolution broke out in 1966, 16-year-old Wei Jingsheng joined the Red Guards. He said that the enthusiasm was very high at that time -- for the purpose of “defending the Communist Party and Chairman Mao”, these youths were really not afraid of death. In the "big tandem" of traveling all over China, this senior cadres’ child saw for the first time the suffering of the Chinese people at the bottom, and was shocked by the poverty in remote areas.

In order to avoid persecution by the authorities, his parents sent him to his ancestral hometown in Anhui to work as a farmer. The previously prosperous land of fish and rice was devastated. The devastation was the result of a famine in which tens of millions of Chinese starved to death in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Wei Jingsheng said that this experience in the countryside made him become very suspicious of the Communist regime.

In 1970, like many children of cadres, Wei Jingsheng was able to join the army as a result of his parents' status and relationships. After he retired from the army in 1973, Wei returned to Beijing and became an electrician at the Beijing Zoo. He said that the period during him being a soldier and a worker was the most precious period in his life. He had contacted people from all walks of life, read a lot of books, and had a deep understanding of China, as well as its history and social reality, along with the major change in his understanding of the Chinese Communist Party.

In 1978, the Xidan Democracy Wall movement broke out. Some workers and intellectuals spontaneously promoted democracy and freedom in the form of big-character posters in Xidan, Beijing. Wei Jingsheng was one of the leaders. He successively published a series of articles such as "The Fifth Modernization: Democracy and Others", and participated in the creation of the underground publication "Exploration".

In March of the following year, he posted a big-character poster "Do we want democracy or a new dictatorship", naming and criticizing the paramount leader Deng Xiaoping for taking a path of dictatorship. A few days later, he was arrested and sentenced to 15 years in prison for "counter-revolution". The Xidan Democracy Wall was also banned.

In 1993, Wei Jingsheng was arrested for the second time and sentenced to 14 years. Under strong pressure from the international community, He was allowed to go to the United States for medical treatment in 1997 and was sent directly from his jail cell to a flight to the United States.

The Democracy Wall was the first public dissident movement to be suppressed in the history of Red China. Wei Jingsheng told VOA that even though he knew it could have resulted in execution, he never regretted participating in that movement. After the Democracy Wall, there have been waves of movement for democracy and freedom in China. Even if he didn't jump out back then, he probably wouldn't have been able to escape in the future.

After Wei was exiled overseas, one day, he received a call from his father. The veteran Communist member who had urged him to stop told him that many "elder sisters" in Beijing (the term for senior female cadres in the Chinese Communist Party) wanted to visit him in the United States. They said: "Jingsheng is a good boy. He did what we wanted to do but didn't accomplish."

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Link to the Original report:

https://www.voachinese.com/a/CCP100-WeiJingsheng-Profile-20210615/5928658.html

Related video:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/interviews/interviews2021/WeiJSlife210619VOAexclusive.mp4

Related reports:

http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2021/report2021-6/WeiJSbackgrounder210613VOAreportCCP100A1396-W999.htm

https://www.voachinese.com/a/CCP100-WeiJingsheng-Backgrounder-20210613/5926584.html

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中文版

Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article: A1401-W1004

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A1401-W1004

Release Date: June 27, 2021

发布日：2021年6月27日

Topic: Wei Jingsheng: Even If I Didn't Participate the Democracy Wall, I Don't Think I Could Have Escaped Later -- Voice of America Exclusive Interview

标题：魏京生：即使我没在”民主墙”出现，后来也逃不过去 -- 美国之音

Original Language Version: Chinese (Chinese version at the end)

此号以中文为准（英文在前，中文在后）

如有中文乱码问题，请与我们联系或访问：

http://www.weijingsheng.org/report/report2021/report2021-6/WeiJSlife210627VOAexclusiveCCP100A1401-W1004.htm

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中共百年•梦醒时分

魏京生：即使我没在”民主墙”出现，后来也逃不过去

2021年6月19日 08:00

-- 美国之音萧雨

大家都知道我是一个干部子弟。文革的时候大家不都把家里的照片烧掉嘛。这些干部都怕万一自己倒霉了去连累其他的朋友。我帮我妈妈烧照片时，发现一张照片，咦，我说，这不是江青嘛，那抱着的小孩是谁？我妈说，那不就是你嘛。我说，你怎么认识江青的？我妈说，那时候两家是邻居。她跟江青又都是青岛老乡。她们俩的关系开始的时候很不错，但是后来关系也不好了，还特别跟我说：“咱们家遇到任何灾难，你不要去找她。”

我妈在这方面的看法其实要比我父亲更早。她很早的时候就对共产党、对毛泽东很有看法了。1960年代初中国和苏联还没公开翻脸，但是在党内已经传达了。我妈妈那时候是一个很大的企业的党委书记。她就在公开大会上提前讲了这件事儿了。因为还没有公开这件事，只是在党内传达，所以她就等于是犯了错误。一下子把她贬为普通工人，就是党委书记一撸到底。从那个时候她可能就开始怀疑这个共产党。她应该比我父亲更早的觉悟到共产党就是一个大骗局。

因为是干部子弟，生活条件比一般老百姓要好一些，上的学校也比一般老百姓要好。我们这些干部子弟从小在学校受的教育就是共产党怎么怎么好；老百姓怎么怎么拥护；老百姓生活的多么幸福；台湾的人民都在吃香蕉皮；美国人民都在水深火热之中等等等等。当时确实满脑子都是这些教育观念。所以文化革命的时候，我们这批人很多人都参加了红卫兵，保卫毛主席，保卫共产党，热情很高。那真是死了都不怕那样子。

我第一次产生怀疑呢，是那时候大串连。我们是最早串连的嘛，那时候还没大规模串连，就坐普通的列车，跟普通的旅客都混在一起，往西北去。走到甘肃定远那一带，过了天水以后那里，在一个临时停车的站，我就把头伸出来，因为当时在天水买的烧饼没法吃，杂和面儿的，特别难吃，我就想把那个烧饼给要饭的。

我当时吓了一跳，我面前一个要饭的，17、18岁一个女孩儿，根本就没穿衣服。身上黑的，都是脏的东西，拉着可能是她弟弟，披着个麻袋。我当时就非常震惊，怎么会有这种情况呢？我对面坐了一个可能是外出办事人员。他说，哎呀，这种情况很普遍啦，在这种穷地方，你花十块钱就能买这么一个姑娘。我当时对这些情况就不能理解，非常震惊。从那时候我就开始怀疑当时在学校里受的那些教育。共产党真的这么好吗？为什么会有这种情况呢？

【编注：1966年12月，大批中共高级官员受到文革冲击之时，以高干子弟为首的红卫兵成立了 “首都红卫兵联合行动委员会”（简称”联动”），公开与中央文革对抗，想保护自己的父母。他们还扬言：“中央文革把我们逼上梁山，我们不得不反。”不出一个月，“联动”被宣布为反革命组织，100多名“联动”骨干成员被逮捕。】

文革中后期为了躲避公安部的追踪，我逃到乡下我们老家去了。我们老家其实是全国著名的鱼米之乡，就是在（安徽）巢湖周围，自古以来兵和粮食都特别多的地方。后来我居然发现，我们老家那个地方在大跃进的时候饿死了一半的人口。我们那个村子旁边就饿死了一半人。我们那个村子呢，我们的亲戚壮着胆儿把公家的粮食给分了，他差点被判刑。因为他是一个老共产党，就没给他判刑，只给他开除党籍。

我在当地做了一些调查，我说那个时候都是怎么活过来的。人们说，那个时候连老鼠都被吃光了，老鼠窝全都被挖了，然后就开始吃人。我说还有这种事儿啊，吃人啊？人说你看旁边有个村子，离我们可能有两三里的路程，全是土墙。都八年了，我说这话的时候是68年，大饥荒过去八年了，还没有人活着回来，等于说那个村子全部都饿死掉了。从此我就对共产党产生了极大的怀疑。

对共产党产生彻底了解可能是在我当兵以后，那时候接触全国各地的人，我发现我们老家饿死人的状况啊，不仅仅是那一块地方，全国各地都差不多。只不过一些穷困地区的人，历史上就知道怎么度荒年。他们知道挖野菜、挖树根，死的人可能还没那么多。而我老家是鱼米之乡，自古以来没有说吃不饱的问题。一遇到大饥荒，人都饿死掉了，非常凄惨。我看到那个情况以后，对共产党的印象就逐渐地走向负面。

在部队的时候，星期天我们经常到镇子上买东西。镇子上有一个书店，书店里有很多的马克思主义的书。卖不出去，农村谁看那书啊？我全给整套买了。研究马克思主义的时候，不像过去那时候都是抱着一种崇敬的心情，这时候我抱着一种批判的态度看。我也看了很多马克思以外的书。那个时候中国有很多内部刊物嘛，很多共产党人可以看很多被禁止的书。高级干部每天有两份《内参》，或者叫《大参考》。《大参考》里主要讲的是外国的事儿，《内参》主要讲中国内部的事儿。通过这些东西，我们就对中国现实有了客观了解。从客观的角度看马克思主义，就是一个基本的逻辑错误。你怎么能用一个专政，一个暴政去建立起民主呢？你怎么能用暴政来保护老百姓的利益呢？

从我下乡以后到当兵这段时间，我对共产党的认识基本上完全转变过来了。通过当兵和当工人这段时间，我对中国的历史、中国社会的现状有了很深刻的了解。这是我人生里面最重要，也是最珍贵的一段时间。

【编注：70年代末，在北京动物园当电工的魏京生投身西单民主墙运动，张贴了小字报《第五个现代化：民主与其它》，参与创办地下刊物《探索》。在指名道姓批评邓小平4天后，他被逮捕，先后两次坐牢，共计18年。】

民主墙的时候我不是出去干这些事儿嘛，父亲没有反对。他的思想实际上也有转变。民主墙到了快要受到镇压的时候，他有很多内部消息，他跟我说，你干的这个事情是掉脑袋的事情，你赶快停止吧。我当然说，我已经不能停了。

有时候一个人该干什么有点命中注定的。（重新来过的话）我觉得我应该还会这么做。因为在民主墙之后，在中国逐步掀起了这种要民主要自由的机会非常多。民主墙是第一次机会。所以呢，即使我没在民主墙出现，我想我后来也逃不过去。

现在的小青年日子过得好了，离文革，离大饥荒，离六四屠杀都已经很远了。小青年们现在不一定都知道那个时候的事情，但你可以看看自己国家的历史。再看一看别的国家的历史，引以为戒。不要别人喊什么就热情一高，跟着干什么。比如说看看德国的历史吧。德国希特勒经济也是快速发展，人民生活得到改善。然后希特勒和纳粹党就煽动起来以爱国主义面目出现的种族主义，跟中国现在煽动的所谓的爱国主义其实内容差不多。在这种热潮的煽动下，第一，专制暴政巩固了；第二，由于他的稳固，他就开始野心膨胀了，这和今天习近平搞的战狼越来越凶猛是一模一样的。下一步就要开始对外扩张，不但给德国人民，也给周边人民带来很多灾难。

我老想对现在年轻人说不要去崇拜什么东西，不要去崇拜什么人。别人说的话你要想一想，要通过自己的眼睛去看。要相信自己眼睛看到的东西。要去相信自己思考得出的结论。看看从50年代开始到现在，中国持续了70年的这场灾难，就是从1921年共产党成立的时候开始的，灾难的苗子，是被欺骗的苗子。能维持到现在100年了，那它也应该寿终正寝了。

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讲述人：魏京生｜民主活动家

2021年6月13日 04:39

-- 美国之音就中共成立100周年特访

魏京生，1950年生，父母均为中共高级干部。从小一边在北京最好的学校接受热爱中国共产党的红色教育，一边耳闻目睹着中共高层的权力斗争。

1966年文化大革命爆发，16岁的魏京生参加了红卫兵。他说，那时候热情很高，保卫共产党、保卫毛主席，真是死了都不怕。在走南闯北的"大串联"中，这个高干子弟头一次见识了底层民众疾苦，偏远地区的贫困令他震惊。

为了躲避当局迫害，父母将他送到安徽老家务农。曾经的鱼米之乡如今满目疮痍，这是上世纪50年末60年代初，中共独裁者毛泽东在经济上瞎指挥一意孤行，导致数千万人饿死的大饥荒恶果。魏京生说，在农村的这段经历让他对共产党产生了极大怀疑。

1970年，和很多干部子女一样，魏京生凭借父母的关系得以参军，1973年复员后回到北京，成为北京动物园的一名电工。他说，当兵和当工人这段时间是他人生中最珍贵的阶段。他接触了社会各阶层的人，读了很多书，对中国和历史和社会现状有了很深刻的了解，对共产党的认识也发生了重大转变。

1978年，西单民主墙运动爆发。一些工人和知识分子自发在北京西单以大字报的形式宣扬民主、自由，魏京生是其中的领军人物。他先后发表《第五个现代化：民主与其它》等一系列文章，参与创办地下刊物《探索》。

隔年3月，他又贴出大字报《要民主还是要新的独裁》，指名道姓地批评最高领导人邓小平正在走一条独裁道路。几天后，他被逮捕，以"反革命"罪判刑15年。西单民主墙也被取缔。

1993年，魏京生第二次被逮捕，重判14年。在国际社会的强大压力下，1997年魏京生获准赴美就医，从牢房直接被送上一架飞往美国的班机。

民主墙是红色中国历史上第一波被镇压的公开的异见运动。魏京生对美国之音说，尽管他知道这是个"会掉脑袋的事"，但他从不后悔投入那场运动。民主墙之后，中国出现了一波又一波争取民主自由运动。即使当年他没有跳出来，以后恐怕也逃不过去。

流亡海外后，有一天，他接到父亲的电话。这位当年曾喝令他收手的老共产党员告诉他，北京的好多"老大姐"（共产党内部对高级女干部的称呼）想要去美国看他。她们说："京生是个好孩子。他做了我们当年想做却没做成的事。"

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报道的原始链接:

https://www.voachinese.com/a/CCP100-WeiJingsheng-Profile-20210615/5928658.html