Wei Jingsheng Foundation

Wei Jingsheng Foundation News and Article Release Issue: A30-W6

魏京生基金会新闻与文章发布号：A30-W6

Release Date: October 1, 2003

发布日：2003年10月1日

Topic: Wei Jingsheng calling for abolishing Education-through-Labor System in China on VOA

标题：魏京生在美国之音电视节目“时事大家谈”上呼吁废除中国劳教制度

Wei Jingsheng calling for abolishing the Education-Through-Labor System in China on Voice of America (VOA)'s TV Show - "Current Affairs"

The VOA's TV show on September 15, 2003, dealt in particular with the Education-Through-Labor (i.e. Lao-Jiao, or LaoDong-JiaoYang) system that has been used in China for the last fifty years. The TV guests were renowned Chinese dissidents Wei Jingsheng and Liu Xiaobo. Li Xiaobo spent three years in an Education-Through-Labor camp. He was expected to participate in the show via telephone from Beijing. However, he was not able to participate at the last minute due to (predictable) "technical problems".

While VOA's radio program has a larger Chinese audience, VOA's one hour a day TV program is getting very popular with Chinese satellite TV viewers. According to survey, about 3% of Chinese own satellite TV receivers, mostly "illegally" as far as the Chinese government is concerned.

The anchor of the program, Mr. Wei Ke asked Mr. Wei Jingsheng what the Education-Through-Labor system is meant to accomplish, and what kind of people become the victims of the system. Mr. Wei Jingsheng answered that the system is a tool for the Communist party. The party found that law was an obstacle to enforcing its will, so it came up with the Education Through-Labor camps to circumvent this problem. This way, the Communists can do whatever they like without a need for going through the law, and be able to form a tight system through every layer and every corner of the country. There is no need for judges and courts or checks and balances. The Labor Education camps are used primarily for dealing with political dissidents, and other people they are not sure how to deal with. He said that sending someone to a camp does not require a judge or a court of law. All it takes is the recommendation of a person's work unit and the enforcement of the Public Security Bureau. Chinese citizens have no protection whatsoever against being taken. The administrative officials have all the power over their people. So, if one has offended his/her bosses, then one might encounter such a fate outside the law.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng said that being sent to one of these camps is the same as being sentenced to punishment for a crime. Some officials who are guilty of crimes are also sent to these camps. Mr. Wei Jingsheng suggested that this system goes hand-in-hand with the old economic system in which people's lives were ruled by their work units. At that time, sending someone to an Education-Through-Labor camp was a way of getting rid of a "troublesome" employee who could not be dealt with in any other way.

Wei Jingsheng said, in some sense, Education-Through-Labor is worse than Reform-Through-Labor (i.e. LaoGai or LaoDong-GaiZhao), because the Reform-Through-Labor more or less needs to go through so-called legal procedures. Wei Jingsheng urged the need to totally abolish the Education-Through-Labor system.

The following includes summaries of selected calls from the viewers and Mr. Wei Jingsheng's answers to their questions:

Mr. Yu from Hunan said that the Education-Through-Labor system is something that people learn to be afraid of when they are children. He said that eliminating this system, however, would not eliminate the inequality of the Chinese legal system. He wants to know how to reform the legal system in such a way as to eliminate that inequality.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng responded by saying that eliminating the Education-Through-Labor system is a big step towards eliminating legal inequality. However, the system still needs to be reformed in such a way that political rights cannot be monopolized and the court system is independent.

Mr. Huang from Zhejiang was thrilled to see Wei Jingsheng on this talk show. He praised Wei Jingsheng as a true hero that everyone knows. He asked if other Communist countries also have Education-Through-Labor systems.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng said that there are major differences between Chinese labor camps and those of other countries. He said that he had this discussion with many former dissidents and political prisoners of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, such as President Havel of the Czech Republic. He referred to conversations with Mr. Bukovsky, the well-known dissident and a victim of the former Soviet Union, about the comparison of the Soviet Gulag and the Chinese Education-Through-Labor and Reform-Through-Labor camps. The description of the Chinese system even made Mr. Bukovsky shake his head. The Chinese camps are indeed unique with "the Chinese character" including brain washing, and the successful suppression of "anti-revolutionary" effort. The system aims at controlling one's mind as well as one's body. He said that Taiwan also had a similar system at one time before it became democratic.

Mr. Zhang from Hebei mentioned it was the first time he saw Wei Jingsheng's face, although he has long respected Wei Jingsheng like the others. He commented on the background and the longevity of the Education-Through-Labor system.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng said that the system has been around for half a century under the Communists, but it did not exist prior to Communist control. Even in ancient times, people were punished only after being tried by the legal system. Education-Through-Labor is indeed "an innovative product" of Chinese Communism.

Mr. Tao from Zhejiang said that Education-Through-Labor oppresses people's thoughts and is probably unconstitutional as well.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng mentioned the importance of fairness to maintaining stability. He said that eliminating the Education-Through-Labor system and amending China's constitution are steps towards achieving the sort of fairness that will make people feel more safe and secure. Wei Jingsheng said that there is no fairness to speak of regarding Education-Through-Labor. "Why are there so many TV series in China in recent years about 'Bao Gong' and 'Hai Rui'", Wei Jingsheng asked and answered it himself: "It is not about that people miss these two ancient legends, but a way to express their longing for the fairness in their hearts".

Wei Ke and Wei Jingsheng then discussed the similarities between the Education-Through-Labor system and the "repatriation" system used to round up people without adequate ID's and papers to prove they are "legal residents" of the cities. Earlier this year a college graduate, Sun ZhiGang, was beaten to death while being detained under the repatriation system. A great deal of attention was focused on criticizing this system after people realized that many more people, especially powerless and unknown peasants who sought a living in the cities, had gone through the same ordeal even to death. This action has forced the Chinese government to abolish the "repatriation system" later on. Wei Ke asked if the Education-Through-Labor system could be changed through similar negative attention, especially considering the outrage people voiced toward the tortured death of Zhang Bin, a victim of Labor-Through-Education.

Mr. Wei Jingsheng said that if people stood up and spoke out against it then it would be possible to change it. However, the Communist Party regards this system as a convenient tool for controlling the people. It would balk at the prospect of eliminating it unless people tried their best to stop such an illegal and unfair practice.

Wei Jingsheng suggested that it is a good time for everyone work together and push hard to abolish such a system now, in particular at this time of the new leadership transaction period. "You know, now there is a strong internal struggle within the Chinese Communist leadership, especially between Jiang (Zemin) and Hu (Jintao). Both sides have been working hard to get extra credits for themselves. There is a possibility of such credit coming from responding to a popular uprising against Education-Through-Labor, although it would be difficult for the Communists to give up such a desirable tool for themselves."

The later half of the program featured the interview with his holiness the

Dalai Lama.

After the program, Mr. Wei Jingsheng talked to VOA's Mandarin Service director, Mr. William Baum, and was well received by more than a dozen of its staff.

For the complete one-hour long TV broadcast, please connect to the link:

http://chinalaborunion.org/Videos/Wei_VOA_Interview_0915.rm

For the related photos, please see through links at:

1. Wei Jingsheng on VOA's radio program:

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915radio.jpg

2．Setup at VOA's TV studio:

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915setup.jpg

3．Mr. William Baum, director of Mandarin Service of VOA, supervising the show:

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915director.jpg

4．Mr. Wei Jingsheng with Wei Ke, the anchor of VOA's TV shows:

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915WeiK.jpg

5．Mr. Wei talks to Mr. Baum, the Mandarin Service Director of VOA:

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915BaumW.jpg

6．VOA staff welcome Mr. Wei Jingsheng's visit:

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915all.jpg

（Summary by Ciping Huang, with help from VOA and other volunteers.）

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魏京生在美国之音电视节目“时事大家谈”上呼吁废除中国劳教制度

2003年9月15日，美国之音的电视节目“时事大家谈”就中国近50年来使用的劳教系统做了专题报道。这一电视节目通过卫星转播，很受中国大陆观众的欢迎。在中国大陆，约有百分之三的人拥有（大多为“非法”的）卫星电视天线。

此节目特邀了中国知名持不同政见者魏京生和刘晓波。刘晓波曾经在劳教队劳教三年。按约定他将通过电话从北京参加这次电视节目。但是在节目开始的时候，因为（几乎在意料之中的）“技术故障”，没有办法接通电话。

节目主持人未可问魏京生先生，自一九五七年八月起形成的中国的劳教系统是如何运作的，哪些人被送去劳教。魏京生说，这个系统是中国共产党的一个运用自如的工具。政府发现法律是对百姓管制的障碍，于是就建立了劳教体系。通过这种方法，而形成一个从上到下很严密的体系，可以达到每一个角落。共产党可以绕过法律程序而为所欲为。把一个人送进劳教队，相当于刑事犯罪的判刑，却根本不需要任何法官与证据，也不需要检查和平衡。所有的程序就是那个人的所在工作单位提出建议，公安局加以执行。中国人在这种情形下，毫无个人权益的保障。官员们对于百姓而言，有绝对的权利。所以，要是一个人冒犯了他的上司或者仅仅是因为领导不喜欢他/她，就有可能被送去劳教，丝毫不受法律的保护，也无法成功地申诉。

魏先生建议，这是一个和旧式经济息息想连的系统，那个时候，人们的生命基本上被所在单位控制。有的时候，单位对一些令他们头痛的人们束手无策，于是就把他们往劳教队一送了之。对表达异议的人士，这也是不需走法律程序的“捷径”。

魏先生认为，在某种情形下，劳教比劳改更糟，因为劳改多少需要一点儿所谓的正式程序。魏先生认为劳教系统应当彻底废除。

之后，魏京生先生接受观众的提问。下面是这一部分的有关摘要：

来自湖南的于先生说，劳教系统是那种让人们从孩童时期就恐惧的东西，无缘无故就会被抓进去。但是即使废除这个系统，还是不能消除中国法制系统的不平等。因为中共仍是一党专制。他想知道如何改革才能够消除这种不平等。

魏先生回答说：废除劳教系统是走向法律面前人人平等的重要一步。但是，整个法制系统仍然需要改革，以便达到法庭的独立，和政治权益的不可剥夺。因此，我们需要有制约性的政治制度，而非垄断性的体制来保证。但这都有待一步一步地做起。

来自浙江的黄先生很高兴在电视节目里看到魏京生。他称赞魏先生是一个无人不知，无人不晓的真正英雄。他想要知道，是否其它原共产党国家也有类似的劳教系统。

魏先生说，他见过很多原共产党国家的反对派领袖，其中的一些后来如捷克的哈维尔还作了总统。他们在这方面有过交流。中国的劳教系统和其他国家相比有重要的不同。为此，他引用了和布科维斯基的谈话。布科维斯基是前苏联专制政权的受害者，著名的持不同政见者。他们将苏联的古拉格集中营和中国的劳教制度和劳改制度做了比较。当听说了中国劳教制度的描述以后，布克维斯基先生不断地摇头表示震惊。中国的劳教与劳改确实具有“中国特色”，它成功地执行了实现“思想教育"与“镇压反革命”的使命。这个系统的目的是不仅控制人们躯体，而且控制人们的头脑。而劳教则更为随意。魏先生说，台湾在民主化前曾经也有过类似的劳教系统。

河北的张先生表示，魏京生先生长期为人敬仰，他很高兴他第一次从电视上见到魏京生。张先生提问中国的劳教系统已经存在了多久？其存在是否与中国低层公民地位低下有关？

魏先生回答，这个系统已经在共产党的统治下存在了近半个世纪，但是在共产党掌权之前并不存在。即使在古代时期，人们受到惩罚基本上还是通过法律程序。比方说“水浒”中杨志就将东京泼皮牛二无奈，以至于最后自己倒违法杀了他而被发配。所以说，劳教系统的确是共产党的“创造发明”。

未可与魏京生谈到中国政府管到每个公民的专制的具体性。魏说：从结婚到生孩子，中共达到了过去欧洲中世纪农奴制想达到而未能达到的。所以这是一个真正的反动制度。

浙江的陶先生说，劳教系统用来压制人们的思想，而且是完全不合法。现在说“修宪”，但宪法却都没有执行。

魏先生认为，公正是维持社会稳定的重要因素。不公正其实才真正的危害着统治，造成人们的不满。即使不敢不满，也会不安。他说废除劳教系统，修改宪法是达到一定公正、从而使百姓感到安全有保障的重要步骤。魏先生说，劳教系统没有公正而言。“为什么最近中国有那么多关于包公、海瑞的电视连续剧？”魏先生自问自答：“人们缅怀这两个传奇人物，不是因为这两个具体人物，而是他们表达心中对公正的热切向往。”

未可和魏京生先生讨论了劳教系统和收容系统的相似性。以及把来到城市的农村户口居民强行遣返回乡等情况。不久前，一个大学生孙志刚在收容制度下被毒打致死，由此引起了关注，收容制度因此遭到了抨击，乃至最后取消。未可提问，是否劳教制度可以用同样的负面影响来得到重视和改变，比如最近被打死的张斌事件？魏京生认为，如果人们站出来公开反对，当然有可能改变。但是，中共把劳教系统视为统治百姓的便利工具，他们会千方百计地阻挠废除这个制度，因此需要人们竭尽全力，共同努力，发出声音，来结束这个不合理的制度。

魏先生建议，现在恰是良好时机，人们应该团结起来，共同努力废除劳教系统，特别是目前领导阶层换届之时，机会难得。“大家知道，现在共产党内部的争斗非常激烈，尤其是江（泽民）胡（锦涛）之争。双方都想要做出姿态，为自己涨分。因此，有以用废除劳教来为自己涨分的可能。但另一方面，劳教是中共压制异己的很得心应手的工具，他们会很舍不得的”。

之后的节目是专访达赖喇嘛。

节目结束后，魏京生先生与美国之音的中文部主任Baum先生及十多名美国之音的工作人员见面并会谈。

有关电视广播一小时的全部内容，请参见：

http://chanlaborunion.org/Videos/Wei_VOA_Interview_0915.rm

其它相片的相关连接为：

1. 魏京生先生接受美国之音电台的采访：

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915radio.jpg

2．在美国之音电视台的准备：

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915setup.jpg

3．美国之音中文部主任Baum先生亲临指导：

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915director.jpg

4．魏京生先生与美国之音电视台“时事大家谈”主持未可先生的工作照：

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915WeiK.jpg

5．魏京生先生与美国之音中文部主任Baum会谈：

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915BaumW.jpg

6．美国之音的工作人员们与魏京生先生交谈：

http://weijingsheng.org/pic/newsletters/newsletters2003/VOA030915/VOA030915all.jpg